I had poked around with the math as well, but struggled with all of the estimates. I'm happy to see Jeff taking a stab at this and discussing.
I think likely some of that force is taken by core muscles, and transferred to the feet against floor, and such. This would be a really cool practical kinesthetics research paper! Julian On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 1:28 PM Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kauf...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks! Note that it's a bit more complicated than where the center of > mass is: you need the moment of inertia. For example, imagine comparing > (a) a point mass at r=1ft and (b) the same mass divided into two bits at > r=2ft and r=0ft. The center of mass in case (b) still rotates with r=1ft > but the cases aren't equivalent: you need 2x the force in case (b). [1] > > But you may well be right that the effective radius is under 1ft! > > Jeff > > [1] Doing the math: > > F_a = m (ω2πr)^2 / r = m * r * (ω2π)^2 > F_b = m/2 (ω2π(2r))^2 / (2r) + 0 = m * r * 2 * (ω2π)^2 > F_a = 1/2 * F_b > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 1:18 PM Chris Lahey <cla...@clahey.net> wrote: > >> I addressed this in my other email, but this is a good example. In this >> case my back is providing 100lbf to your hands. >> >> I also can't imagine being in this position and having centers of mass >> two feet apart, but I would want to measure it before making this an >> argument, hence going with your numbers. >> >> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 13:15 Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kauf...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> Thanks for reviewing the calculation! Imagine that I hold you around >>> your back with both hands, and you put your hands up in the air and enjoy >>> the ride. While I don't think we could get anywhere near 4.5x around in 12 >>> beats if you did that, do you agree that where my hands meet your back I'd >>> need to provide both enough force for our combined weight? >>> >>> (I'm not claiming each person needs to provide ~200lb, but that this >>> total force must be covered by the couple somehow) >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:56 PM Chris Lahey <cla...@clahey.net> wrote: >>> >>>> I think you're trying to calculate two 150lb dancers, but you've >>>> calculated for a 300lb mass, but you shouldn't do that doubling. I'm >>>> exerting enough force to provide your centripetal force and vice versa. >>>> Those forces oppose one another, but they don't add up. That is a factor of >>>> two error. >>>> >>>> I have to think more about one foot radius and 45 rpm and read upthread >>>> more. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 12:25 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I was curious about John's "The shoulder-blade connection is purely to >>>>> counteract centrifugal force. That is not normally a lot of force, so it >>>>> shouldn’t make you tired." above. While ideally you could measure this, I >>>>> don't think swinging with a scale between your hand and partner's back and >>>>> your hand would be comfortable, and it would be hard to read. Let's try a >>>>> bit of physics. >>>>> >>>>> If you like to swing quickly you might go 4.5x around in twelve beats, >>>>> which is 45rpm at a tempo of 120bpm. Let's guess the people each weigh >>>>> 150lb and approximate them as point masses two feet apart. Doing some >>>>> math: >>>>> >>>>> r = 1ft >>>>> m = 300lb >>>>> ω = 45rpm = 0.75 hz >>>>> >>>>> v = ω2πr >>>>> = 0.75 hz * 2π * 1ft >>>>> = 4.7 ft/s >>>>> >>>>> F = mv^2/r >>>>> = 300lbm * (4.7 ft/s)^2 / 1ft >>>>> = 300lbm * 23ft / s^2 >>>>> = 6662lbm * ft / s^2 >>>>> >>>>> 1lbf = 32.17 lbm * ft / s^2 >>>>> 1lbm = 0.0311 lbf * s^2 / ft >>>>> >>>>> F = 6662 lbm * ft / s^2 >>>>> = 6662 * 0.0311 lbf >>>>> = 207lbf >>>>> >>>>> This says you need ~216lb of force to hold the dancers together! If >>>>> you're rotating more slowly, perhaps 2.5x in twelve beats, it's still a >>>>> significant 64lb. >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> PS: If you want something you can play with, this is (rpm/3 * 3.14)**2 >>>>> * weight * 1/32.2 >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:08 PM Jeff Kaufman < >>>>> jeff.t.kauf...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Here's a 1989 recording the Portland OR dance did in a recording >>>>>> studio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_qLQUH-7k . I see almost >>>>>> all "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's back, >>>>>> lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold (hereafter 'ballroom' >>>>>> though >>>>>> as illustrated above that's a fraught term). At 0:58 and then again at >>>>>> 1:28, 1:58, 3:02 etc there's a couple with a symmetrical hold where they >>>>>> each have their right hand around the other's waist, with their left >>>>>> hands >>>>>> joined low in the center. I didn't watch the whole video, so it's >>>>>> possible >>>>>> there were other couples that did other holds at some point? >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's 1987 in Mendocino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOKMwrl-7Q >>>>>> . I only see ballroom holds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's 1986 in Cambridge MA: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-pBs9BY3Q . Outdoor demo >>>>>> performance. Almost all ballroom holds, but at 4:04 the couple all the >>>>>> way >>>>>> on the right has outer hands in a forearm hold (which they continue doing >>>>>> in later iterations of the dance). >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's 1986 in Francestown NH: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O09f-3yGMuE At 0:30 I see two >>>>>> ballroom holds and two where the outer arms are holding a bit above the >>>>>> elbows. At 1:06 I see two ballroom holds, one of the hold from 0:30, and >>>>>> one of the symmetrical holds I described in the Portland OR video, though >>>>>> note that this is many of the same couples. Jumping ahead to 8:38 I see >>>>>> three ballroom holds and where the outer hands hold each other's >>>>>> forearms. >>>>>> Separately, I really like how enthusiastic the balances are: you can feel >>>>>> the room shake through to the camera! >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's one labeled 1986 Chico Contra: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCYAyEj6jWg Almost all ballroom >>>>>> holds, except for one couple where the lady's left hand is on the back of >>>>>> the gent's right arm instead of behind his shoulder (doesn't look >>>>>> comfortable to me!) >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's 1976 in Bloomington: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2A3955G2w . Looks like a >>>>>> performance. At 0:10 I see three couples where the outer hands are >>>>>> joined >>>>>> as in ballroom, the gent's right hand is around the lady's waist, and the >>>>>> lady's left hand is again on the back of the gent's right arm. Then >>>>>> there's one couple doing the symmetrical swing with left hands joined low >>>>>> between their bodies. Same again at 0:44, 1:11, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's 1967 somewhere in New England: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6E1AtqyvFM . I see ballroom at >>>>>> 0:35, 0:37, 3:15, 3:16, 5:08, 5:10. Then at 1:05 (and then again in the >>>>>> background at 5:11, and then again at 5:23 and 5:33) I see a forearm hold >>>>>> with arms that are straighter than I'm used to. At 2:08 I see a hold >>>>>> where >>>>>> the gents hands are both around the lady's waist and the lady's hands are >>>>>> both over the tops of the gent's shoulders. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's 1981 in Belmont MA, but it's an hour and I'm going to bed: >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdTVkWcehZo >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 4:33 PM Stein, Robert <ste...@msu.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The 1964 film with Dudley Kaufman calling also shows the same >>>>>>> variety of swinging styles from ballroom to various barrel holds. >>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > On Mar 26, 2024, at 16:13, Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Looking through old media to figure out what swing positions were >>>>>>> common sounds like fun! I think video might be more promising? Here's >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> few annotations of a video, where the numbers are timestamps and each >>>>>>> bullet describes the couple that's in the middle of the frame at the >>>>>>> timestamp. I only counted each couple once: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Cambridge MA, 1990: >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/dC0qQYWjdh0?si=JWkNH0g93yo6VWrC >>>>>>> > * 3:41: lady's hands behind gent's arms, gent's right hand behind >>>>>>> lady's back, gent's left hand behind lady's arm >>>>>>> > * 4:12: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>>> > * 4:14: outer arms making a point, lady's left hand on gent's >>>>>>> shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>>>> > * 4:44: outer arms making a point held way out, lady's left hand >>>>>>> behind gent's shoulder, gent's right hand on lady's back >>>>>>> > * 5:16: outer arms overlapping, inner hands on backs with lady >>>>>>> above gent >>>>>>> > * 5:17: outer arms making a point held low, gent's inner hand on >>>>>>> lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>>> > * 5:18: outer arms making a point and held out, gent's inner hand >>>>>>> on lady's back, lady's inner hand behind gent's arm >>>>>>> > * 5:48: both lady's hands behind gent's shoulders, gent's left >>>>>>> hand behind lady's elbow, gent's right hand behind lady's back >>>>>>> > * 5:49: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>>> > * 5:50: outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > The "outer arms making a point, gent's right hand behind lady's >>>>>>> back, lady's left hand behind gent's shoulder" hold, which I think of as >>>>>>> the standard today, was about half of them, but there was quite a lot of >>>>>>> variation. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I tried to do this with a Fitzwilliam 1975 clip, but there were >>>>>>> too many cuts. The 1964 video would be another one to try? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Jeff >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 3:33 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > Responding to various points. >>>>>>> > And, obligatory acknowledgement that there's always regional >>>>>>> differences (and, perhaps ultimately that is what this thread is really >>>>>>> about?) >>>>>>> > I beg you forgive me for directness, and please assume a friendly >>>>>>> tone and desire for friendly discussion, as that's what's intended. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I just thumbed through two big choreo milestone books marking >>>>>>> approximately the beginning of the less-1s&2s age of contra - Balance >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Swing, and Zesty Contras - and absolutely Ted Sanella and Larry >>>>>>> Jennings. >>>>>>> > The short version: despite being contemporaries and the books >>>>>>> published a year apart (1982 and 1983), they describe slightly different >>>>>>> swing holds, where: >>>>>>> > - a gent's right hand is either on the waist on the small of the >>>>>>> back (Sanella) or a little higher (Jennings, via the illustration on the >>>>>>> cover which he points out in the description is what to follow) >>>>>>> > - a gent's left hand is either a typical ballroom palm-up >>>>>>> supporting the lady's right hand (Sanella) or behind the lady's right >>>>>>> upper >>>>>>> arm (Jennings, with Sanella noting the variation as well) - with a >>>>>>> lady's >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> > - a lady's left hand is resting on the top of the upper arm >>>>>>> (Jennings) or "behind the upper arm" (Sanella) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > So even in 1982/1983, there was no agreed traditional swing >>>>>>> position, and holds described by both did include women holding men in >>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> that were supporting from behind rather than everyone agreeing that >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> hand is "resting on top" as with other couples' dances. >>>>>>> > Obviously dance evolves over time, and I'll circle back around to >>>>>>> that after I touch on some specific points: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > RE: Joe: "They lean back or sideways or press back against the >>>>>>> Leftie’s supporting right hand." >>>>>>> > Agree, these are bad habits. The "leaning back" may be describing >>>>>>> "the feeling of centripetal force", but also I have definitely >>>>>>> experienced >>>>>>> people who lean back. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > RE: Neal: "both-palms-flat swing ... forces the swing together >>>>>>> because you are limited to the length of the shorter arm." >>>>>>> > I don't think this is accurate. >>>>>>> > This was covered elsewhere in the thread. The shoulderblade isn't >>>>>>> small, and adjustments can be made to adjust for height or size >>>>>>> differences. There's always exceptions, sure. >>>>>>> > Certainly, when I swing young kids, we're not doing >>>>>>> shoulderblades. Then again, they have a lot less mass than an adult, so >>>>>>> there's less support that's needed to be given. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > RE: Neal: " putting your palm in the middle of my back means >>>>>>> you’re going to be on top of me." >>>>>>> > I agree, however, a good flat-palms swing hold is not in the >>>>>>> "middle" of the back. There's a gap between shoulderblades, so a hand in >>>>>>> the middle is partially off the shoulderblade. >>>>>>> > I like how Lisa Greenleaf describes it as the curve of the hand >>>>>>> often can naturally curve around the shoulderblade. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > RE: Neal: " if partners are the same height/arm length then the >>>>>>> arms are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, >>>>>>> resulting >>>>>>> in collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward." >>>>>>> > I mean, I suppose, technically speaking? But I think everyone on >>>>>>> this list here has been dancing for years, and "elbow collisions" isn't >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> thing I've really experienced or heard discussed. >>>>>>> > So, I conclude that this may in theory be possible, but people >>>>>>> just ... do it? >>>>>>> > As a lark/lefthand role, my right arm comes into a swing from a >>>>>>> bit of an under-scooping motion. As a robin/righthand role, my left arm >>>>>>> comes in more open and I wait half a moment to let the lark engage their >>>>>>> right arm before I try and wrap my right arm around. >>>>>>> > It's similar-ish to the anticipation leading into a good >>>>>>> connection on a star promenade. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Further to this point, if I were using the traditional "woman left >>>>>>> arm rests on top", I'd have to wait until the lark's arm has engaged, >>>>>>> anyway. >>>>>>> > Which means that traditionally, women have done that extra bit of >>>>>>> work in the dance of that waiting, reading the other dancer's movement, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> timing their own move --- and I wonder how much of that had gone >>>>>>> unnoticed. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > This all said, the explanation that you give, Neal, may not work >>>>>>> as wellwhen it's not taller men dancing with shorter women. >>>>>>> > Some women are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>>>> > Some men are tall and dance the Robin/Righthand role. >>>>>>> > Some women are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>>>> > Some men are shorter and dance the Lark/Lefthand role. >>>>>>> > Some men dance with men, some women with women. >>>>>>> > Etc. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > So dancing requires a need to adjust our arms to "make a swing >>>>>>> work for both people" as a universal and generic skill. >>>>>>> > Thankfully, I think it's one that's actually more automatic than >>>>>>> it may seem! >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Regardless of how we discuss the technical and kinesthetic aspects >>>>>>> of contra, I teach (and I think most callers teach) that dancers need to >>>>>>> adjust themselves to every partner and neighbor, and find a happy medium >>>>>>> that works for both people. >>>>>>> > If someone doesn't want to put their hand flat on my >>>>>>> shoulderblade, that's fine and I'll adjust by limiting my upper-end >>>>>>> swing >>>>>>> speed. >>>>>>> > I think we all share the value that a skilled contra dancer can >>>>>>> adjust their style to meet another dancer's differences in size, height, >>>>>>> ability, tiredness, injury, age, etc. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2024 at 11:28 AM Neal Schlein <nschl...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> > Hi Julian, >>>>>>> > Regarding both dancers trying to put their palm flat on the other >>>>>>> persons back, I agree with Joe. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > The both-palms-flat swing does multiple things. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > First, it forces the swing together because you are limited to the >>>>>>> length of the shorter arm. I’m six feet tall with broad shoulders and >>>>>>> long >>>>>>> arms—putting your palm in the middle of my back means you’re going to >>>>>>> be on >>>>>>> top of me. I don’t care who I’m dancing with—I want space, and I’m not >>>>>>> OK >>>>>>> with that. With a standard hold, I can give partners lots of space. >>>>>>> (Also, I sweat from the head a lot. You want that space, and no one >>>>>>> wants >>>>>>> their hand on my back.) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Second, if partners are the same height/arm length then the arms >>>>>>> are coming in at the same point and going to the same point, resulting >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> collision. SOMEONE has to adjust up or down AND forward. This means a >>>>>>> changed angle for one person, and due to the change in angle a >>>>>>> shortening >>>>>>> of the hold to match the arm that adjusted (usually on top), thereby >>>>>>> pulling the swing closer together than otherwise necessary…which also >>>>>>> puts >>>>>>> the other person’s arm (typically lark, and also typically longer) in a >>>>>>> non-natural position, which is likely to be physically uncomfortable and >>>>>>> potentially harmful. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Neal Schlein >>>>>>> > Librarian, MSLIS >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 1:24 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > Hi Joe, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's >>>>>>> how I teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've >>>>>>> heard >>>>>>> a complaint about it. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>>>>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>>>>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the >>>>>>> clamping, >>>>>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>>>>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a >>>>>>> variety >>>>>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on >>>>>>> the backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>>>>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>>>>>> fairly petite. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I >>>>>>> have an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing >>>>>>> insufficient >>>>>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the >>>>>>> swing hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it >>>>>>> is, >>>>>>> yeah? But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, >>>>>>> because what you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I >>>>>>> understand correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington < >>>>>>> contradancer...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> > Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the >>>>>>> lark's, but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a >>>>>>> number of >>>>>>> years now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same >>>>>>> location on the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the >>>>>>> robin's >>>>>>> back. I know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> newbie workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> provide equal support in the swing. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers >>>>>>> are not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> this without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow >>>>>>> bent >>>>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my >>>>>>> elbow, >>>>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give >>>>>>> major support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one >>>>>>> Jeff described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm >>>>>>> is on >>>>>>> top are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the >>>>>>> shoulder. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > --jh-- >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>>>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> > JJ, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the >>>>>>> asymmetry of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is >>>>>>> dancing. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Joe, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy >>>>>>> mediums >>>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold >>>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even >>>>>>> seasoned >>>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>>> > Julian Blechner >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> > Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip >>>>>>> the switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" >>>>>>> end >>>>>>> on (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> left arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is >>>>>>> the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching >>>>>>> roles without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the >>>>>>> norm." >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the >>>>>>> gents I >>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were >>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Jeff >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers >>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more >>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's >>>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a >>>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", >>>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's >>>>>>> right >>>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left >>>>>>> hands >>>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it >>>>>>> almost >>>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a >>>>>>> lady. >>>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it >>>>>>> with a >>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it >>>>>>> first >>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>>>> change... >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and >>>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even >>>>>>> though >>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's >>>>>>> terrible, >>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, >>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain >>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can >>>>>>> hurt >>>>>>> the lark. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the >>>>>>> entire >>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light >>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. >>>>>>> Only >>>>>>> pull forward. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > --jh-- >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra >>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about >>>>>>> this email thread and observations. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Short and simple: >>>>>>> > A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>>> > - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>>> > - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it >>>>>>> guided >>>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced >>>>>>> dancer. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In dance, >>>>>>> > -Julian Blechner >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> > I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think >>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to >>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the >>>>>>> robin’s >>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the >>>>>>> hand/arm >>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>> > Becky >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >>>>>>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though >>>>>>> what I >>>>>>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your >>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group has been >>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at >>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >>>>>>> ) >>>>>>> >> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms >>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her >>>>>>> right hand.) >>>>>>> >> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>> >> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>> >> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>> >> Thoughts? >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 or in the photo I >>>>>>> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Lark's arm? >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>> >> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Thanks all! >>>>>>> >> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>> >>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>> >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be >>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my >>>>>>> arm. >>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen >>>>>>> felt >>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your >>>>>>> weight! >>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own >>>>>>> balance >>>>>>> and weight. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught >>>>>>> badly, >>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't >>>>>>> afford >>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing at >>>>>>> high >>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I just >>>>>>> slow >>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you >>>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some >>>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh >>>>>>> ) - you could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>> >>> John >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>>>> >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>> >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference >>>>>>> between a >>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with >>>>>>> EVERY >>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to >>>>>>> dance. >>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra >>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s >>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when they >>>>>>> come >>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is >>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever >>>>>>> comes >>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make >>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Becky >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner < >>>>>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in >>>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our >>>>>>> culture? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own >>>>>>> intimacy to >>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - >>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Is it something else? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might >>>>>>> entail? >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> In dance, >>>>>>> >>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>> >>> He/him >>>>>>> >>> Western Mass >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> > Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>
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