On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 06:44, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: > "MEISCH,CORY (HP-Vancouver,ex1)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Without getting too many feathers ruffled, it does seem to me that > > enhancement requests seem to fall on deaf ears. > > > > I have tried other distros and Mandrake is the best, so I'm willing to give > > my time, talent, and opinion on the matter. The solution is never "go find > > another distribution". > > > > The idea of showing what is already installed or can be installed/upgraded > > would be very nice, ala SuSE Yast. > > Again, I want to state that I do agree that for advanced users, I > do understand "old" rpmdrake is better. > > And, please remember, "first" rpmdrake, written in Perl by pixel, > was much more simple than "old" rpmdrake. > > I think "old" rpmdrake was like that, because it was designed > with advanced users in mind, and it followed (nice) solutions > from advanced/cooker/etc users. > > "New" rpmdrake was designed following our belief (motivated by > several user experiences and us trying to think hard what > beginners would experience) that "old" rpmdrake was "frightening" > and beginners had a hard time understanding the GUI at first > sight. We decided that each tool needs to stay simple, do one > thing and do it well, to be suitable for beginners. We also > decided that DrakX approach was better (show dependencies when > selecting package, not after "install" button is clicked). > > I think current rpmdrake is good for beginners, old one was too > complicated for beginners. I understand this is frustrating for > many advanced users, though a part of the rationale is also that > most advanced users will tend to prefer urpmi.
I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate on these points, these last three paragraphs have done much to confirm what I already had gleaned from other indirect sources, which is important, since this verifies from the source. Or I should say, an authoritative source. I also appreciate the time you have taken in this thread to speak to these problems. I understand that every moment that you spend writing to the list are moments that you are either not developing or devoting to personal time. I have been one of those that has preached on your behalf in the past (i.e., on behalf of all employed developers), believe it or not. It is pretty well perceived by the general population, from what I see, that rpmdrake was redesigned for beginners. The fact that the decision had a rationale or the fact that the decision was acted on are not facts that are in dispute. The dispute comes in with the total disconnect that existed between the users (paying or nonpaying) and a decision that directly involved them all. A user interface is by it's very nature a public interface, a means by which the public at large has a window into the operating system. Therefore by that definition it should be the public at large that has the *most relevant* input and decision making powers concerning the user interfaces. Mandrakesoft, to it's credit, has put a smorgasbord of methods by which users can voice their preferences. Mandrakesoft, to it's discredit, has failed in this case to exploit those resources which it itself has put into place, which are as follows: Expert mailing list....newbie mailing list....Mandrakeclub opinion surveys....and the Mandrakeclub rpm voting polls. I purposely exclude the cooker mailing list because it is the sole *public* resource that was used by Mandrakesoft in this case. The greater discredit in this is that the cooker mailing list was the one resource that beginners or new users were most likely *not* to be using as a feedback tool. Which may or may not have been part of the flawed strategy utilized in order to replace the "beginner" rpmdrake UI with the "old" standard rpmdrake. Since you took your personal time to reiterate your history from your cooker standpoint I felt it only fair and necessary that I reiterate the history from the standpoint of everyone else who is not directly involved day to day in cooker. So I will take some time out of my day to do this. When the "beginner" rpmdrake was introduced, there had been no opinion polls heralding it's existence to the general population. There had been no activity or screenshots or sketches of possible UI configurations listed on the mandrakeclub anywhere. There was no knowledge among any of the Mandrake kin (non cooker) that anything new was coming; and therefore there was no chance in hell itself that any decisions concerning it would involve the public. If I went to newbie, expert, or Mandrakeclub forums right now and asked any of them had participated in a beginner research program to create a "beginner" rpmdrake to replace the old, or even if any of them had been asked whether they actually even wanted a replacement or not, exactly how many people do you think would respond in the affirmative? The target audience for rpmdrake is beginners. Yet beginners don't use cooker. Yet Mandrakesoft polls, mailing lists, and surveys exist for the purpose of hearing from beginners and users. Yet those resources were completely unused prior to the rollout of beginner rpmdrake. The impression is that that had to be on purpose. Rewind to 9.0 development cycle. There was an immediate backlash to the rollout of the beginner rpmdrake replacement. Should we have been surprised? You might say, "Well, they are going to bitch no matter what changes were made, so we lose either way". My answer is that no body can truly bitch about a voted decision because that is the maximum position of strength. And if they do, then they are still wrong and the commonsense majority will recognize the wrongness. But that's naturally not what we have here. So the users used the only outlet that they had for their frustrations at the time of 9.0, which were the rpm voting polls. The power of public opinion was vast as the "standard" rpmdrake poll rocketed to the top of the total poll list, which is prioritized in order of votes cast. There were only perhaps four polls above it. Actions taken? Responses? None. Fast forward to 9.1 development cycle. This is when I myself started paying attention, since I had begun distributing cooker cd's, and I also had bravely and somewhat foolishly moved my production rig to 9.1 cooker in a blind act of faith. Beginner rpmdrake hit me like a ton of bricks. Other disgruntled users (not me) again implemented a "standard" rpmdrake UI poll on Mandrakeclub rpm poll section, and again it's popularity was phenomenal. Once more it rocketed to the first priority page number one, completely unopposed, page one being one out of about 17 or 18 pages at the time, if memory serves. Again there were only a bare handful of polls above it. Actions taken? None. Responses? None. Explanations to the general public as to what was going on? None. Basically confusion reigned supreme. It is true as Buchan pointed out that a handful of more knowledgable Club members went to Cooker and complained, but their voices went basically unacted upon regarding the real differences between beginner and standard rpmdrake. Fast forward to about a month before Deno decided to leave Mandrakesoft. The 9.0 and 9.1 "standard" rpmdrake polls were shut down and thus rendered invisible to the general public, stifling further forum conversation within those polls. Again there was no explanation given other than an answer I posed to the Club about the problem. I was basically told that we needed to migrate because the beginner rpmdrake was "better". So, that's it. You might continue to say that yes, users do have input. Perhaps that is true to a very limited degree, but it's barely just true enough to be able to make that statement. At least in the case of rpmdrake. The questions in my mind remain: If the user interface's cosmetics and design are for the users at large then why arent users at large questioned and polled regarding the user interface's cosmetics and design. If the Club money is supposed to give your vote a priority over other users and a voice in the Club regarding development then why is it that your Club money does not give your vote a priority over other users and a voice in the Club regarding development. Some might say, yes it does. I say, not when it really counts. More pointedly: If the mechanisms for public feedback and opinion are in place and operational as they are, then why is it that those mechanisms for public feedback and opinion are abused with disuse during the most critical changes in the Mandrake distribution evolution, i.e. the most critical changes in the most *key* components of the Mandrake distribution. Thank you for your attention to this matter. --LX -- 같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같 Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk Linux Mandrake 9.1 Enlightenment-0.16.5-12mdk Evolution 1.2.4-1.1mdk Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ 같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같
