I think we should accept that ethnographical collections and others have a need for expressing relations between persons. To make the CRM simple we should model a schematic way to express such. A solution could be to say that these relations are defined by humans and create a relation class somewhere under conceptual objects. C-E
>-----Original Message----- >From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of martin >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 12:33 PM >To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons > >Anthropologically, there seem to be an immense number of variants of >kinship, as George Lakoff describes. >So, the challenge for us is to find the generalizations that would be relevant >for recall in an intergated information system. What would be a reasonable >distinction in a query? When would be the answer set too large? >I read that all Chinese with last name Wang (or another) assume a sort of >kinship, of "we". Where are the limits to "minorities" ? Are there reasonable >delimiters to more immediate forms of kinship? > >Could we classify social relations by >* kinship & kinship equivalent (like adoption, marriage), > - immediate ?? > - relevant for social interaction > - spiritual/political relevance >* by business & interest groups, >* by acquaintance&neighborhood, >* by employment >* by dependency of power (liege, slavery, military) ???? > >Which of these could appear as a selection in a query? >Do we have research questions and queries for prosopography and other >social relations? > > >Cheers, > >Martin > > >On 5/8/2014 9:54 πμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: >> Dear Detlev, >> The agrelon demonstrates clearly that there is a lot of possible relations. >> It >could be interesting to see the set of relations if one tried to model the >traditional peasant family in Russia. Traditionally there is a very large >numbers >of terms for describing the relations in the extended family. >> >> C-E >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of >>> Detlev Balzer >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 8:11 AM >>> To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons >>> >>> Dear Christian-Emil, >>> >>> by the way, a more modest approach to prosopography (compared to >>> snapdrgn) has been taken here: >>> >>> http://d-nb.info/standards/elementset/agrelon.owl >>> >>> Unfortunately, this hasn't yet made it beyond the proposal stage. It >>> may, however, serve as an example of what kinds of relationships are >>> considered important in the library sector. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Detlev >>> >>> Am 04.08.2014 um 16:32 schrieb Christian-Emil Smith Ore: >>>> Snapdrgn and the associated projects for prosopographical >>>> information >>> (prosopographies) can be a case study and serve as a source of >>> information/evidence. It is only a 2-3 years project. However, it can >>> be a task to see how to map the snapdrgn ontology (which is >>> expressed in rdf(s) I >>> believe) to CRM. If we cannot do that, CRM needs adjustment or >>> amendments. I will try to make the mapping and study the matter further. >>>> C-E >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of >>>>> martin >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 3:31 PM >>>>> To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] groups and relations between persons >>>>> >>>>> Dear Christian-Emil, >>>>> >>>>> I could quite well imagine having a sort of more general Group >>>>> describing a social bond that would not involve members potentially >>>>> "acting as one" or one speaking for them. >>>>> In that case, that Group would no more be "one Actor". >>>>> >>>>> Would you regard http://snapdrgn.net/ as a good practical scope? Do >>>>> you have other sources to map from? >>>>> >>>>> If we have a practical scope, we can model things. >>>>> Do you propose an amendment to the CRM or a "social" extension? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 4/8/2014 2:38 μμ, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> This is not a part of the discussion in April about groups and >>>>>> aggregations. It is groups as a way to model relations between >>>>>> persons >>>>> (actors). I gave a presentation about CRM and prosopography at the >>>>> DH2014 workshop "Ontologies for prosopography" (see >>>>> http://edd.uio.no/artiklar/DH2014/C-E_Ore_prosopography.pdf ). >>>>>> The current CRM way to model relations between persons is to use >>>>>> the >>>>>> E74 >>>>> Group. A relation is modeled as an instance of E74 Group and the >>>>> type of relation is expressed via P2 has Type. In a non-symmetric >>>>> relation each person is linked via 'P107 is current or former >>>>> member of ' specified by 'P107.1 kind of member'. This is all >>>>> according to the scope >>> note in CRM. >>>>>> One may note that an instance of E74 Group used in this way >>>>>> represents an >>>>> instance, an n-tuple, of a relation (seen as a set of n-tuples as >>>>> in mathematics or in relational databases). The relation is >>>>> identified by the type of the E74 group. >>>>>> I was a little skeptical when this way of modeling relations where >>>>>> introduced >>>>> in CRM. My first thought was to define explicit, typed properties. >>>>> After studying how for example the SNAP (Standards for Networking >>>>> Ancient Prosopographies, http://snapdrgn.net/) tries to cope with >>>>> their at least 65 identified relations between persons by >>>>> introducing a relation class in RDFS, I realized that the CRM solution is >very good. >>>>>> Since this is not meant to be a statement about me and CRM, I will >>>>>> raise two >>>>> issues which I think need some discussion. >>>>>> 1) E74 Group scope note "This class comprises any gatherings or >>>>> organizations of two or more people that act collectively or in a >>>>> similar way due to any form of unifying relationship.[...]" Will >>>>> all related persons fulfill the requirement " act collectively or >>>>> in a similar way due to any form of unifying relationship", that >>>>> is, is >>>>> E74 Group too narrow to be used to model all kind of relations >>>>> between >>> persons like the ones we find in prosopography? >>>>>> 2) The modeling of relations by 'P107 is current or former member of ' >>>>> specified by 'P107.1 kind of member': If this is to be implemented >>>>> in RDF(S), should we in the CRM definition recommend or at list >>>>> hint to a good solution to implement the .1 E55 Type properties? >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Christian-Emil >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>>>> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>>>> | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | >>>>> | >>>>> Center for Cultural Informatics | >>>>> Information Systems Laboratory | >>>>> Institute of Computer Science | >>>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>>>> | >>>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>>>> | >>>>> Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>> >>> -- >>> Detlev Balzer, Mecklenburger Landstr. 5, D-23570 Lübeck Tel >>> (+49/0)4502- 8896495, Mobil (+49)0173-6231233 PGP Fingerprint 8E5F >>> DCBD 2FC0 4058 86C2 3FEC 8D55 ACCD 2D71 8095 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > >-- > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | > | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | > | > Center for Cultural Informatics | > Information Systems Laboratory | > Institute of Computer Science | > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | >-------------------------------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >Crm-sig mailing list >Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
