I was about to write that "It's more complicated than that", but you got there first. Also your comments over-simplify :-)
The good thing about personal property and intellectual property is that at least they're not real property. That's where things really get confused. BTW, it is not always possible to treat ownership by more than one legal persons as if they were a single entity. The rights of the parties may differ in different situations. On Tue, Mar 21, 2017, 6:32 AM martin <mar...@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > Dear Robert, Stephen, > > I think these questions are too complex for an e-mail discussion. It is > absolutely non-trivial to talk about > 50% ownership. The CRM was clearly not made to describe business > transaction in the way you mention below. That needs a careful extension > and systematic description of the questions. We had formed a team to > investigate business models analyzing spectrum, but the partners from > Collection Trust dropped out later. > > The first action would be to restart that work, form a team, and recover > all arguments in the minutes. > > As CRM-SIG, we are interested in robust models that we can recommend as > standards. That requires a complete understanding of the issues. > > The reasoning about owning a physical thing is very different from > owning an Information Object. Metaphoric analogies natural language is > built on can be very deceiving. > > Any user of the CRM can make his own extensions any time. It is not a > virtue to reuse CRM constructs for areas not intended to. That causes > the typical mess of pseudo-compatiblity. > > If we describe physical ownership as a E30 Right, we come in conflict > with the property. > > I propose to split the questions. > > Martin > > > On 21/3/2017 8:25 πμ, Stephen Stead wrote: > > Robert > > The question of a Right held by multiple people is indeed interesting. > > Might it be modelled as all parties forming a Group that then holds the > Right? > > If the proportions of the Right held by individuals was important then I > think your suggestion of component Rights that form part of the overall > Right and each having a dimension would do very well. > > Rgds > > SdS > > > > Stephen Stead > > Tel +44 20 8668 3075 > > Mob +44 7802 755 013 > > E-mail ste...@paveprime.com > > LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Robert > Sanderson > > Sent: 20 March 2017 21:42 > > To: martin <mar...@ics.forth.gr>; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Rights model > > > > > > Apologies for the delay in responding, we’ve been trying to map out the > extent of the information we need to track to enable research on historical > art markets and ownership. > > > > One of the most interesting and challenging questions that has come up > is around joint ownership of a piece of art. Ownership of an object is > clearly a Right, but is it divisible with P148_has_component (via > inheritance from E89)? For example, if two Persons each own 50% of the > value of an object, is there an Ownership Right, which has two component > Rights, each of which have a dimension of 50% ? > > > > Or would that mean that there are two halves of the expression of the > Right, perhaps the main clause and an equally long rider? > > > > I think that answering this question will help with the broader question > of the meaning of E30. > > > > Some use cases: > > * Two dealers (Knoedler and Goupil) jointly pay for a painting, and > later jointly share the profits (or loss!) when it’s sold > > * A donor donates 10% of the value of an object each year for 10 years > (to spread out the tax write off) > > * A married couple divorce and agree to have half share in the value > of their statue > > * The children of the owner inherit an equal share of the valuable > manuscript on the owner’s death > > * The object is jointly owned by the city and the museum from when the > city and museum were indistinguishable as organizations > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Rob > > > > On 3/10/17, 9:53 AM, "Crm-sig on behalf of martin" < > crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr on behalf of mar...@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > > > > On 28/2/2017 9:50 μμ, Robert Sanderson wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > > > Given the current model, I believe that E30 Right is an instance > of the holding of a Right, rather than the concept of the Right itself? > For example, E30 is not “Copyright” or “Apache 2.0” or “Ownership” … it is > “The holding of copyright of an object by Martin”, “the use of Apache 2.0 > for some code by Rob”, or “Ownership of a house by Emma”. > > Dear Robert, > > > > Yes, here we should actually talk about three things: The holding > of the > > right, the content of the right, and the concept of the right. E30 > is > > intended to be the content of the right, which is relatively > trivial if > > it is just an instance of unspecified copyright, but not if it is an > > individual contract. If the holding of the right can be merged with > the > > content or not, is to be discussed. See my previous message. > > > > best, > > > > martin > > > > > > If this is not intended to be the case, can someone provide an > example in RDF (your serialization preference is fine) that demonstrates > two different people holding two different rights over the same object? > > > > > > Given that … we are expected to then use P2_has_type to refer to > the sort of Right, and thus queries should look for: ?object > P104_is_subject_to ?right . ?right P2_has_type <actual_right> . > > > If so, how would one refer to the Creative Commons licenses? > Still with P2? > > > > > > Many thanks! > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > Example of P104/P105/P75: > > > { > > > "@context": "https://linked.art/ns/context/1/full.jsonld";, > > > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/object/31";, > > > "@type": "crm:E22_Man-Made_Object", > > > "rdfs:label": "Object", > > > "crm:P104_is_subject_to": [ > > > "https://linked.art/example/Right/0";, > > > "https://linked.art/example/Right/1"; > > > ], > > > "crm:P105_right_held_by": [ > > > { > > > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/actor/6";, > > > "@type": "crm:E39_Actor", > > > "rdfs:label": "Owner", > > > "crm:P75_possesses": { > > > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/Right/0";, > > > "@type": "crm:E30_Right", > > > "rdfs:label": "Ownership Right by Owner of Object" > > > } > > > }, > > > { > > > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/actor/7";, > > > "@type": "crm:E39_Actor", > > > "rdfs:label": "Holder", > > > "crm:P75_possesses": { > > > "@id": "https://linked.art/example/Right/1";, > > > "@type": "crm:E30_Right", > > > "rdfs:label": "Copyright by Holder of Object['s > information object]" > > > } > > > } > > > ] > > > } > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Crm-sig mailing list > > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > > > -- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | > > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | > > | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | > > | > > Center for Cultural Informatics | > > Information Systems Laboratory | > > Institute of Computer Science | > > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > > | > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > > | > > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Crm-sig mailing list > > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | > | Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr | > | > Center for Cultural Informatics | > Information Systems Laboratory | > Institute of Computer Science | > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >
