Dear Florian,
Thank you too for the subject! We would be very pleased to hear in due
time how you have proceeded.
In the meanwhile, I'd propose a new issue: How to model the focus/view
of an observation (to elaborate the Dimension - Visual Item question,
view directions and sections of physical features defined by view focus,
as well as paintings and graphics as results of observation)
Best,
Martin
On 11/1/2021 12:26 PM, Florian Kräutli via Crm-sig wrote:
Dear colleagues,
thank you so much for all your thoughts and input!
The examples by Franco indeed illustrate the problem very well. We
also do have many images that are composites of different views. The
engineers at Smapshot may come up with ways to accommodate this, for
example by distorting the image or by enabling a segmented
georeferencing of an image.
We also have landscapes where we are quite certain that their creator
has never actually seen the view themself, but has copied a landscape
from another artist. So we can't make any statement about the location
of an artist when creating an image. In the case of photographs we can
make such statements and would be able to use the measurement approach
that Martin described.
In general, I would tend to represent in data what we know and only in
a second step what we conclude from that knowledge. Øyvind's
suggestion therefore sounds plausible, too. We create a 3D model, and
from this model we conclude something, namely a hypothetical viewpoint
of an observer. I have to give it some thought how to represent this
in a data model without creating too many statements that are not
grounded in available data, but I think it might be a good direction
for this particular problem.
Thank you all again, best wishes,
Florian
On 31. Oct 2021, at 12:12, Øyvind Eide <lis...@oeide.no> wrote:
Dear Florian,
in addition to the comments made by others, which makes a lot of
sense too, I would offer the additional perspective that the
resulting 3D model (with the added canvas) can be seen as a collage
of the source 3D model and a digital reproduction of the photography
/ painting — thus as a work is the bringing together, based on
certain rules and principles, of two works.
I think this adds a different perspective than some of the others
mentioned. Which perspectives to focus on when modelling such
processes is a pragmatic choice.
All the best,
Øyvind
Am 27.10.2021 um 12:18 schrieb Florian Kräutli via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
Dear Øyvind,
Thank you very much for your input! To answer your questions:
1. Yes, the tool uses a 3D model of a landscape (based on Cesium:
https://cesium.com/)
2. Yes
3. Yes. The tool positions the image in a 3D landscape so that from
the calculated viewpoint, the 2D image aligns with the 3D landscape.
The tool also outputs a glTF of what I assume is the canvas position
in the coordinate system:
https://smapshot.heig-vd.ch/api/v1/data/collections/36/gltf/204037.gltf
(though I'm not familiar with this file format)
I should mention that I also discussed this issue via Slack with
Matteo Lorenzini. Nicola Carboni already prepared a model to
document the perspective over a place by a person, documented as the
point of observation by an actor. We concluded that we could apply
that model also in this case. However, I would be very interested in
your thoughts on how to treat it on the level of the 3D model. That
might help me to model the data closer to the actual process of how
it was obtained.
Best wishes,
Florian
*Subject: **Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling a simulated view on a physical
space*
*Date: *26. October 2021 at 21:58:32 CEST
*To: *Florian Kräutli <florian.kraeu...@uzh.ch>
*Cc: *crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
Dear Florian,
thank you for this interesting puzzle!
Before I venture into concrete suggestions, allow me to ask some
question in the form of assumptions you can confirm, reject, or
discuss:
The establishment of a hypothetical viewpoint is used to establish
a location of the canvas. That means the following:
1. There is a 3D model of a landscape where each point (also those
making up lines and polygons) are normal (x,y,z) coordinates in
some coordinate system.
2. The hypothetical/assumed viewpoint of the photographer or the
painter is a point in the same coordinate system.
3. Each point of the canvas (representing a painting or a
photography) being put into the landscape is a point in the same
coordinate system. Thus the canvas as a whole is an area in that
coordinate system.
If this is so, we might very well talk about something added to a
pre-existing 3D model. If not, I would be happy to be enlightened
and hopefully manage to dig further.
All the best,
Øyvind
Am 26.10.2021 um 10:28 schrieb Florian Kräutli via Crm-sig
<crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>:
Dear all,
I have a data modelling challenge I would need some advice with.
We work with a collection of geographic depictions of Switzerland.
This includes photographs, paintings, prints, sketches, etc. We
collaborate with Smapshot <http://smapshot.heig-vd.ch/> who
developed a method for aligning landscape photographs with a 3D
model of the physical landscape. An example from our own
collection can be seen here: https://smapshot.heig-vd.ch/visit/204037
Using this method we can determine the possible viewpoint of a
photographer when taking a picture, or the viewpoint from which an
artist may have produced sketches of a landscape. In terms of
data, we obtain the simulated position and view of the
photographer/artist as coordinates (lat/long), altitude, azimuth,
tilt, roll and focal view.
I'm debating now how to model this obtained data in CIDOC-CRM. I
would suggest a S7 Simulation or Prediction for the process of
using the Smapshot app to determine a viewpoint of an image. This
process P140 assigns an attribute to a E36 Visual Item, namely
that the E36 Visual Item (the image) P138 Represents a /view.
/What is this view? Can we say it is a E53 Place? Or is there a
more suitable entity for describing such a (simulated) view?
One could also say that the data defines a E53 Place from which an
image has been created. However, while we can say this with some
degree of certainty for photographs, a painting of a landscape
might have been created using a combination of several viewpoints
as well as, of course, use of imagination on and off-site, so I
would be hesitant to make a statement about the physical location
of an artist when creating a painting.
I would be grateful for your input!
All best,
Florian
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--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
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Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
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