Dear all, I strongly second this proposal. In my opinion, there is a serious lack of guidance as to how we are supposed to use .1 properties. In my opinion, the management of PCs should not only be considered in order to overcome a technological limit. I believe there is some interesting semantics within PCs that would be worth describing more formally.
If I'm not mistaken, .1s are only very briefly described in the CRMbase specification. I quickly found only five snippets (I didn't include the new proposals about .1 properties in 7.2.1): 1. In the "Terminology" section under "property": " Properties may themselves have properties that relate to other classes (This feature is used in this model only in order to describe dynamic subtyping of properties)." 2. in the "About the logical expressions used in the CIDOC CRM": "properties of properties, “ .1 properties” are named by ternary predicate symbols; conventionally, we use P14.1 as the ternary predicate symbol corresponding to property P14.1 in the role of. " 3. in the "Extensions of CIDOC CRM": "Existing properties can be extended, either structurally as subproperties, or in some cases, dynamically, using properties of properties which allow subtyping (see section About Types below)." 4. in "Specific Modelling Constructs" under "About Types": "Analogous to the function of the P2 has type (is type of) property, some properties in the CIDOC CRM are associated with an additional property. These are numbered in the CIDOC CRM documentation with a ‘.1’ extension. The range of these properties of properties always falls under E55 Type. The purpose of a property of a property is to provide an alternative mechanism to specialize its domain property through the use of property subtypes declared as instances of E55 Type. They do not appear in the property hierarchy list but are included as part of the property declarations and referred to in the class declarations. For example, P62.1 mode of depiction: E55 Type is associated with E24 Physical Man-made Thing. P62 depicts (is depicted by): E1 CRM Entity" 5. and in "CIDOC CRM Class Declarations": "Properties of properties are provided indented and in parentheses beneath their respective domain property." My questions and comments: 1. I believe it would be particularly important to clarify if it is possible to use the .1 property of a superproperty with one of its subproperties. For example, is it allowed to use P3.1_has_note with P190_has_symbolic_content? According to my understanding this is not possible, but I do not believe it is explained anywhere. And if it is indeed possible, the PC extension does not allow this semantics. 2. Another issue is the fact that "PC0_Typed_CRM_Property" is not part of the CRMbase class hierarchy. I can understand the reasons behind this choice, but again these would need to be defined. In the context of our work at CHIN, we would sometimes have appreciated using a "P2_has_type" on a PC class in order to type it more formally. Is this something the SIG would encourage? 3. There is also an issue with P67_refers_to and P138_represents. The last is a subproperty of the first and both have a .1 property. In the PC extension, this hierarchy is completely lost, which limits the possibilities of inference. I don't know how to manage this according to CRMpc, but this problem should at least be documented if there is no concrete solution. I don't believe identifying PC138_represents as a subclass of PC67_refers_to would completely resolve this issue. Moreover, this representation would again raise the question concerning the inheritance of .1 properties by subproperties. 4. In the same vein, the question of the relationship that exists between the structure of PCs and their corresponding CRMbase properties is not explicit. If a user wants to implement P67_refers_to and PC67_refers_to in their knowledge graph, how should they implement the whole thing? Should the ontology support this kind of inference (in the RDF), or should it be handled at the query level? 5. I also believe that it would be important to standardize the names of the PC entities. For example, why are the first letters of "PC0_Typed_CRM_Property" capitalized while other classes are not (eg. PC3_has_note)? 6. Now that we formalize the .1 properties, I think it would be more than necessary to have an official scope note for each of them. The vast majority are only very poorly documented in the scope note of their respective property. It is also important to mention that "PC0_Typed_CRM_Property", "P01_has_domain", and "P02_has_range" don't have a scope note at all. 7. It is also difficult to easily find all the information about .1 properties. Would it be useful to have a dedicated section for them in the introduction? Best, Philippe Le jeu. 24 mars 2022 à 08:51, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> a écrit : > I think this is a good idea! > > Martin > > On 3/24/2022 1:23 PM, Pavlos Fafalios via Crm-sig wrote: > > Dear George, all, > > The new version of PC classes file (for CRMbase version 7.1.1) has been > already produced (as discussed in the last meeting) and will be soon > available through the crm website (see issue 567 > <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-567-module-for-pc-properties>). > > Thinking of it again: > Since the namespace for the PC classes is the same with that of the base > classes/properties, why not including them directly within the base RDFS? > (i.e. providing at the end a single rdfs file that also includes the PCs). > Properties of properties are part of the official documentation (of the > base model, or of an extension), so why not including the corresponding PC > classes in the same RDFS file instead of providing and maintaining a second > file? (this applies for both the base model and the extensions) > > This is just a suggestion without knowing any discussions, or decisions > made, when implementing the PC classes for the first time several years ago > (there might be a good reason for having a second file...). > > Best regards, > Pavlos > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2022 at 11:41 AM George Bruseker via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Subsequent to another thread I started here I am proposing that there be >> a conversation about having a standard policy and method for creating, >> documenting and making available the .1 properties for base and its >> extensions in the RDF serialization. At present to my knowledge the PC >> classes are only available for CRMBase and relative to version 6.2.1. Other >> extensions however also use .1 constructions and, moreover, CRMbase moves >> forward and its PC classes should hypothetically move with it. Therefore, I >> propose we discuss, create and implement a common policy for creating this >> rdf derivative to support rdf implementations that adopt the .1 >> constructions. >> >> Best, >> >> George >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > Pavlos Fafalios > > Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow > <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) > Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science - FORTH > > and > > Visiting Lecturer > Department of Management Science & Technology > Hellenic Mediterranean University > > Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece > Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr > Tel: +30-2810-391619 > Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing > listCrm-sig@ics.forth.grhttp://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > > > -- > ------------------------------------ > Dr. Martin Doerr > > Honorary Head of the > Center for Cultural Informatics > > Information Systems Laboratory > Institute of Computer Science > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) > > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece > > Vox:+30(2810)391625 > Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr > Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > -- *Philippe Michon* (he/il – https://name.pn/philippe-michon) Semantic Web Analyst Canadian Heritage Information Network (CHIN) Department of Canadian Heritage, Government of Canada 1030 Innes Road, Ottawa (Ontario) K1B 4S7 philippe.mic...@canada.ca illipm...@gmail.com Tel: 613-998-3721 ext. 225 or 1-800-520-2446 Analyste en web sémantique Réseau canadien d'information sur le patrimoine (RCIP) Ministère du Patrimoine canadien, Gouvernement du Canada 1030 chemin Innes, Ottawa (Ontario), K1B 4S7 philippe.mic...@canada.ca illipm...@gmail.com Tél. : 613-998-3721 poste 225 ou 1-800-520-2446
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