Dear George, About the PC constructs and, in general, if this is the best method to implement CRM's properties of properties in RDF (considering Francesco's email and arguments): I was not involved in the initial discussions, when the SIG first introduced the idea of property classes for implementing the .1 properties of CRM (I see they were first introduced in Jan 2015 for crm version 6.0). My suggestion is to first close issue 588 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-588-common-policy-method-for-implementing-the-.1-properties-of-base-and-extensions-in-rdf> *(since we have already voted for most of its sub-issues*) and then open a new issue for discussing this aspect.
Thoughts? Best, Pavlos On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 3:08 PM George Bruseker <george.bruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear both, > > I am more and more swayed by Francesco's argument that every PC property > class hides an actual ontological entity which we are failing to properly > model. > > I think in principle what Pavlos proposes is syntactically correct and > insofar as we stay on PC here that is probably the way to go. > > That said, in this case we are actually building PCs on PCs essentially > because we want to avoid saying that there is a state that exists or > existed between two things and held for some time. Perhaps in a later > version of archaeo if we are able to accept that states do exist we could > significantly simplify this model by having real state classes for physical > relations etc. This I just forward for thought. The present modelling > completely depends on PC properties and there would be no good reason to > pause the present development path of CRMArchaeo which is reaching a stable > point, by presently changing course. We can maintain the state we presently > have. > > Best, > > George > > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 1:55 PM Pavlos Fafalios via Crm-sig < > crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: > >> Dear Gerald, all, >> >> I think we can follow the same reification approach as we do for the .1 >> properties. >> In this case, we just need to provide the property classes of the domain >> and range properties of AP13.2, i.e.: >> PC_AP13_has_stratigraphic_relation_to >> and >> PC_AP11_has_physical_relation_to >> >> Then, here is a (draft) example of RDF triples that make use of these >> constructs: >> >> *********************************************************** >> <PC_AP13_has_stratigraphic_relation_to> >> a <PC0_Typed_CRM_Property> . >> <PC_AP11_has_physical_relation_to> >> a <PC0_Typed_CRM_Property> . >> >> <subject1> >> <AP13_has_stratigraphic_relation_to> <object_1> . >> <pc_ap13_instance> >> a <PC_AP13_has_stratigraphic_relation_to> ; >> <P01_has_domain> <subject1> ; >> <P02_has_range> <object1> . >> >> <subject2> >> <AP11_has_physical_relation_to> <object_2> . >> <pc_ap11_instance> >> a <PC_AP11_has_physical_relation_to > ; >> <P01_has_domain> <subject2> ; >> <P02_has_range> <object2> . >> >> <pc_ap13_instance> >> <AP13.2 justified by> <pc_ap11_instance> >> *********************************************************** >> >> But there are also other approaches for implementing this, such as using >> named graphs, or the standard RDF reification method (i.e. using >> rdf:subject, rdf:object, etc.), or RDF-start (I think). >> >> Please correct me if I have misunderstood something! >> >> Best regards, >> Pavlos >> >> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 3:38 PM Hiebel, Gerald via Crm-sig < >> crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> we discussed CRMarchaeo and are going to make a proposel for a new >>> version in the next CRM-SIG. >>> >>> >>> >>> In the discussion we encountered the issue of not having yet a >>> policy/strategy for implementing .2 properties which means properties >>> related to properties. >>> >>> We have one of them in CRMarchaeo: >>> >>> *AP13.2 justified by (is justification of)* >>> >>> >>> >>> Domain: *AP13* has stratigraphic relation to >>> >>> Range: *AP11* has physical relation to >>> >>> >>> >>> Scope note: This property identifies the type of physical >>> relation that was used to justify the type of stratigraphic relation >>> assigned to the relation between two A5 >>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mKPhci0Bs0b_b4DxlhlisFgWti2Zl4nCQvQqspRQSAk/edit#heading=h.2afmg28> >>> Stratigraphic Modification events. Physical relations of “above” or “fills” >>> may justify the stratigraphic relation type “after”. Figure 7 gives a >>> graphical representation and Figure 6 shows an example. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I would ask to either create a new issue for the implementation of .2 >>> properties or include the discussion in the existing issue 588 as the >>> strategy should be the same for .1 and .2 . >>> >>> Whatever you think appropriate. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Gerald >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Crm-sig <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Pavlos >>> Fafalios via Crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> >>> *Reply to: *Pavlos Fafalios <fafal...@ics.forth.gr> >>> *Date: *Thursday, 1. December 2022 at 17:46 >>> *To: *crm-sig <crm-sig@ics.forth.gr> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE 588 Implementing the .1 Properties of >>> Base and Extensions in RDF >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Please find my revised homework for issue 588 >>> <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-588-common-policy-method-for-implementing-the-.1-properties-of-base-and-extensions-in-rdf> >>> below: >>> >>> >>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1b0wW70xo2wjxNlWHYDRl7nr-fzYXTchN?usp=share_link >>> >>> >>> >>> Feel free to add your comments or send your feedback! >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Pavlos >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2022 at 11:23 AM Pavlos Fafalios <fafal...@ics.forth.gr> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Mark, all, >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree, we need to make clear which constructs of the RDF are not part >>> of CIDOC-CRM (especially since they make use of the same namespace). >>> >>> One way is to add a note in the beginning of the file. Another way would >>> be to provide them through a different namespace (not sure if this is a >>> good solution--needs some thinking). >>> >>> >>> >>> This is also a good reason for having them in a different RDF file: all >>> classes and properties in this file, except the .1 properties, are not part >>> of CIDOC-CRM, while the .1 properties have a 'domain' class that is also >>> not part of CIDOC-CRM. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Pavlos >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 5:53 PM Mark Fichtner <m.ficht...@wiss-ki.eu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> nice work, thanks! I think for RDF this is a valid representation, >>> although I am not very happy to add properties that are not in the cidoc >>> crm directly and that are not part of the language itself (like in this >>> case crm:P03_reifies). As a user/reader of the rdf it is simply hard to >>> understand what is part of the cidoc crm itself and what comes due to >>> "workarounds". Even in as a new ontology/file/addon it mixes cidoc crm and >>> non-cidoc crm things. >>> >>> >>> >>> Also we have a reification concept (E13 Attribute Assignment), I am not >>> sure if we need even more of these. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm looking forward to the discussion! >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark Fichtner >>> >>> >>> >>> Germanisches Nationalmuseum >>> >>> >>> >>> Am Mo., 12. Sept. 2022 um 14:22 Uhr schrieb Pavlos Fafalios via Crm-sig < >>> crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Please find my homework for issue 588 >>> <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-588-common-policy-method-for-implementing-the-.1-properties-of-base-and-extensions-in-rdf> >>> in the below link (as well as in the issues' folder): >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oQRkmMUgyOeDsn3ZbPuQ__VtbigS9DVsHjmOtvx16uo/edit?usp=sharing >>> >>> >>> >>> Apologies for the delay! Feel free to add your comments or send your >>> feedback! >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Pavlos >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Pavlos Fafalios >>> >>> Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow >>> <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) >>> Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory >>> Institute of Computer Science - FORTH >>> >>> >>> Visiting Lecturer >>> Department of Management Science & Technology >>> Hellenic Mediterranean University >>> >>> >>> Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ >>> Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr >>> Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece >>> Tel: +30-2810-391619 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Pavlos Fafalios >>> >>> Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow >>> <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) >>> Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory >>> Institute of Computer Science - FORTH >>> >>> >>> Visiting Lecturer >>> Department of Management Science & Technology >>> Hellenic Mediterranean University >>> >>> >>> Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ >>> Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr >>> Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece >>> Tel: +30-2810-391619 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Pavlos Fafalios >>> >>> Postdoctoral researcher (Marie Curie IF - Project ReKnow >>> <https://reknow.ics.forth.gr/>) >>> Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory >>> Institute of Computer Science - FORTH >>> >>> >>> Visiting Lecturer >>> Department of Management Science & Technology >>> Hellenic Mediterranean University >>> >>> >>> Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ >>> Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr >>> Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece >>> Tel: +30-2810-391619 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Crm-sig mailing list >>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>> >> >> >> -- >> Pavlos Fafalios >> >> Postdoctoral researcher >> Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory >> Institute of Computer Science - FORTH >> >> Visiting Lecturer >> Department of Management Science & Technology >> Hellenic Mediterranean University >> >> Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ >> Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr >> Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece >> Tel: +30-2810-391619 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> > > > -- > George Bruseker, PhD > Chief Executive Officer > Takin.solutions Ltd. > https://www.takin.solutions/ > -- Pavlos Fafalios Postdoctoral researcher Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science - FORTH Visiting Lecturer Department of Management Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619
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