Hi Fred,

I have just pushed a change to gerrit: https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/95308/

I only changed the docker repository and left the other Linux Tools
features alone
since they were only bumped as part of the point release to fix the Docker
Tooling plug-ins.

I assume I can merge the patch if the gerrit verification is successful.
If this is wrong,
let me know.

-- Jeff J.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Frederic Gurr <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Can you provide a patch for the SimRel build (branch "Neon.3_respin")
> that references the new version?
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred
>
> On 19.04.2017 17:27, Jeff Johnston wrote:
> > Hi Ed,
> >
> > Linux tools spun a 5.3.1 release which now has a 2.3.1 version of docker
> > tooling.  The Linux tools download site has update-docker-2.3.1 and
> > update-docker, both which have 2.3.1 versions of the docker.core plug-in
> > and docker feature.  Not sure why you are not seeing this.
> >
> > -- Jeff J.
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Ed Merks <[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >     Frederic,
> >
> >     There seem to have been no notes/minutes taken during the meeting:
> >
> >       https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017
> >     <https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_05_2017>
> >
> >     I recall agreeing to provide steps for reproducing the problem so
> >     that Thomas Watson could test if the wiring resolution fix he made
> >     for Oxygen also solves the problem for Neon.3.  The fact that he
> >     encountered "the mirroring problem" didn't help in that regard:
> >
> >       https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213
> >     <https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=515213>
> >
> >     In the end, he sent me a note saying (and I quote):
> >
> >>     I see that now there is the same number of httpcomponents bundles
> >>     as there was in the messed up Oxygen M6 builds.  But here my back
> >>     port of the resolver fix does not seem to have fixed the issue.
> >>     I'm unsure if that is because it gave up with the sheer number of
> >>     bundles or if something else is going wrong.  But at this point
> >>     the backport of the resolver fix does not seem to be the solution
> >>     to the problem.
> >
> >     I assumed (wrongly I guess) that Thomas would investigate a more
> >     general fix to address the wiring problem.
> >
> >     In the end, I also wasn't sure which version of the docker tools is
> >     proposed for contribution to Neon.3a.  I tried to search for update
> >     sites containing it like this:
> >
> >     Nothing looks like a new version of 2.3.  Goodness knows where one
> >     should find what's being proposed for contribution...
> >
> >     In any case, the proposed "solution" (A) really just changes the
> >     version of httpclient to be one that's not broken (missing
> >     packages), but it doesn't change the wiring problem in any
> >     fundamental way.  There will still be the four versions that can all
> >     be installed simultaneously, so we really should expect the same
> >     wiring problem(s).  In fact, I believe Oxygen M6 has effectively the
> >     same four httpcomponents.httpclient bundle as does Neon.3, so I'm a
> >     little suspicious whether the wiring problem is in fact really fixed
> >     even for Oxygen.  We won't know until M7 and that's a month away.
> >     It doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings.
> >
> >     So at this point it remains unclear the nature of the wiring
> >     problem(s).  Is it a bug? Is it fixable? Does the knowledge, will,
> >     and capacity to fix it exist?
> >
> >     Without a fix to the wiring problem I think we can eliminate A as a
> >     solution, leaving B, C, and D (i.e., focus on problem avoidance
> >     approaches).  But I think if the wiring problem is a bug, it will
> >     come back, and it will raise its ugly head again when users install
> >     various technologies from various sources.  To my thinking, fixing
> >     the bug seems important.
> >
> >     Regards,
> >     Ed
> >
> >
> >     On 19.04.2017 12:49, Frederic Gurr wrote:
> >>     Hi Ed,
> >>
> >>     In the last planning-council meeting you offered to evaluate if the
> >>     fixed Linux Tools package works as expected and if there are still
> >>     wiring issues.
> >>
> >>     Can you give us an update on the current state?
> >>
> >>     Regards,
> >>
> >>     Fred
> >>
> >>     On 31.03.2017 11:14, Ed Merks wrote:
> >>>     Hi,
> >>>
> >>>     The original thread is fractured into many threads so its kind of
> >>>     impossible to follow each thread with a reply but I'll try at the
> bottom
> >>>     of this note, i.e., below the ===========
> >>>
> >>>     But before doing that, I'd like to re-focus on the most important
> >>>     questions: *We currently have a problem with Neon.3, will we fix
> it, and
> >>>     if so how will we fix it?*
> >>>
> >>>     The discussion has quickly digressed (constructively) into solving
> the
> >>>     issue of how Orbit dependencies should be managed by projects and
> by the
> >>>     release train.  Unfortunately I see this as a world hunger issue;
> not
> >>>     one that is easily addressed and I believe not one we can wait for
> in
> >>>     order to solve the Neon.3 problem.  Let's face it, we've not been
> able
> >>>     to produce a proper Oxygen milestone in months, we still don't
> have one
> >>>     now, and we won't have one until next month, we hope.
> >>>
> >>>     For Neon we've done three maintenance releases.  Neon.1 needed a
> respin
> >>>     and Neon.3 looks to be in need of the same thing.  Clearly
> something is
> >>>     seriously wrong.  But if we spend our time on solving the Orbit
> world
> >>>     hunger issue, will we arrive at a solution in time for Oxygen, let
> alone
> >>>     in time to fix Neon.3?  I am very, very doubtful.
> >>>
> >>>     As another data point, if I install the egg-laying-wool-milk-pig
> for
> >>>     Neon.3.  The following happens.  I'm prompted to accept this
> license:
> >>>
> >>>         Red Hat, Inc. licenses these features and plugins to you under
> >>>         certain open source licenses (or aggregations of such
> licenses),
> >>>         which in a particular case may include the Eclipse Public
> License,
> >>>         the GNU Lesser General Public License, and/or certain other
> open
> >>>         source licenses. For precise licensing details, consult the
> >>>         corresponding source code, or contact Red Hat, Attn: General
> >>>         Counsel, 100 East Davie St., Raleigh NC 27601 USA.
> >>>
> >>>     I'm not sure how this license slipped into the release train.
>  Aren't
> >>>     there checks for this?  (Sorry to digress, but this is also
> unacceptable.)
> >>>
> >>>     Launching the final installation comes up like this:
> >>>
> >>>     Clearly a disgusting mess, but I've mentioned that before and the
> same
> >>>     projects are still doing the same bad things, so we clearly all
> accept
> >>>     this situation as normal.
> >>>
> >>>     The most important point here is the error log (first attachment)
> is
> >>>     full of exactly the problem indications (bundle wiring problems) we
> >>>     should have expected from the Neon.3 repository's contents, if
> someone
> >>>     were to install an arbitrary combination of the repository's
> contents.
> >>>     It's really not so hard to test this!
> >>>
> >>>     If I create the same installation with my local build of the Oomph
> 1.8
> >>>     installer---which installs my locally built version of Oomph 1.8
> so the
> >>>     Oomph setup plugins are no longer disabled because I made the
> >>>     userstorage dependency optional and eliminated the strict <=4.4
> upper
> >>>     bound constraints on httpclient, which was such a bad idea I can
> almost
> >>>     have a canary to think this done to solve a problem with no
> anticipation
> >>>     of the problems it would cause---then I can visit all the
> preference
> >>>     pages producing the second attached much larger log.  It seems
> clear
> >>>     that proper testing really doesn't happen for far too many
> projects on
> >>>     the train.  With distributed responsibility, no one is really
> responsible...
> >>>
> >>>     ==================================
> >>>
> >>>     Orbit Issues
> >>>
> >>>     1) Respinning Linux Tools against Oxygen Mx seems to miss the
> point that
> >>>     we should only distribute released versions of bundles,  so no Neon
> >>>     build should redistribute any unreleased version of anything.  If
> a new
> >>>     version of something is needed for security reasons or other
> reasons, it
> >>>     should be released first.  And doing that in a maintenance train
> without
> >>>     testing the overall impact is clearly something we should never do
> again
> >>>     (without waving a bunch of red flags of warning).  And as Martin
> >>>     Oberhuber asks, is nothing in place to check for this?  So suppose
> we do
> >>>     respin with a fixed released version, like what we have for Oxygen
> M6,
> >>>     then most likely we'd still have the problems we have in Oxygen M6
> so
> >>>     we'd need a fix to the resolver in Neon.  Better would seem to
> respin
> >>>     with the old version(s) of the Orbit bundles, but somehow we can
> never
> >>>     delete the broken version from Neon and because it has a higher
> version
> >>>     number is likely to slip back in unexpected (though hopefully not,
> given
> >>>     that features have pinned their bundle versions).
> >>>
> >>>     2) Don't include Orbit bundles in your project's features.  Sounds
> like
> >>>     a great idea, but begs endless questions, and while solving a
> problem
> >>>     might well introduce more new problems than it solves.  The first
> >>>     question (as Carsten points out) is how do these things end up in a
> >>>     repository, and if they are in a repository somehow, how are they
> >>>     categorized?  It's hard to get them in and once you do, they're
> >>>     categorized poorly.  The next question is, how do they end up in
> the
> >>>     release train, if the projects that need them don't contribute
> them?
> >>>     Directly from Orbit you say?  But which ones should be pulled in
> from
> >>>     Orbit and how is that discovered?   Are those the ones the
> projects have
> >>>     tested against? Then there is the question of whether an
> installation is
> >>>     deterministic if the bundle version isn't pinned?  It's not; it
> will
> >>>     depend on what's in the repos that are available at resolve time.
> But
> >>>     Gunnar argues that even packages are not deterministic, which I
> think is
> >>>     false: if the feature pins the bundle version and the package
> requires
> >>>     the feature, then the pinned bundle is definitely in that
> package.  But
> >>>     regardless, Gunnar's important point is that the runtime wiring
> seems
> >>>     kind of non-determinstic, and while uses constraints might help,
> who the
> >>>     heck understands those well, what tooling produces it correctly
> for us,
> >>>     is that nicely integrated in PDE, and will it be properly
> maintained (in
> >>>     contrast to lower bound constraints which you can pretty expect
> will
> >>>     remain on whatever stale version they were initially set to).
> This may
> >>>     well be the right direction in which to go, but getting there isn't
> >>>     going to be even half the fun...
> >>>
> >>>     Regards,
> >>>     Ed
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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