On Apr 14, 2016, at 2:36 AM, stef <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 08:12:52PM -0700, Tony Arcieri wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Ron Garret <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well, that's true, but it's also hundreds of times bigger than a token in
>> the Yubikey "nano" form factor, which is actually convenient to keep
>> permanently in the USB slot of a laptop. Your physical design seems pretty
>> unwieldy for laptops (see also Yubico's keychain designs).
>> 
>> Yubikey "nano" factor tokens like the NEO-n have also supported more
>> general purposes than a U2F token (e.g. CCID interface, OpenPGP applets,
>> see also PIV)
>> 
>> I swear I'm not a paid shill for Yubico, but I'm a fan of small
>> display-free hardware tokens. While a token like what you've built might
>> provide Maximum Security under pessimistic threat models, its large size
>> makes it look rather inconvenient to me.
> 
> coincidentally i'm hacking on a similar device for quite some time. and while
> one of my design goals was to have my keys always on me, even in the sauna.

As long as you don’t actually want to *use* it in the sauna you could take the 
SC4-HSM with you, but you’d probably want to put it in a ziploc bag.

> there's another hard requirement, which is kinda conflicting with having a
> device so small to always keep it in the usb plugged. this requirement is to
> have the unlocking of the key material depend only on the usb device not on
> the usb host.

If you were to implement a pass phrase to lock the SC4-HSM (the current 
firmware doesn’t support this but it’s easy to add this feature), that pass 
phrase would not depend on the host.  You’d use it (via a KDF) to 
encrypt/decrypt the secret keys stored on the device.

> if i have to enter my password to unlock the keys on the pc, any
> finfisher/hackingteam malware can duplicate my password and use it itself.

That’s true.  But your attacker would *also* need to get *physical* access for 
the password to do them any good.

Also, if you were being super-duper paranoid, you could always dedicate a host 
device for this purpose and keep it air-gapped.

> so the i need some kind of passphrase entry on the device. and with this
> requirement the UX actually favors bigger designs, with displays.

The display is actually not the limiting factor on size as much as the input 
device is.  I don’t know of any way to add a high-bit-width input device to a 
device this size.  The SC4-HSM has two push-buttons, and if you really wanted 
to you *could* use those to enter a PIN of some kind, but it would be a UI/UX 
nightmare so I wouldn’t advocate it.

> i also understand that a small device in a usb slot is nice, but it also
> encourages continuous contact between the keystore and an untrusted device. i
> rather unplug my keystore when it's not needed.

I’m not sure I understand this.  It’s easy to unplug any USB device when it’s 
not in use.  What would be the alternative?

> as a shameless plug, my designs are already in production, and will available
> in small quantities this summer.

Cool!  What is it called?  How can I get one?

rg

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