-Caveat Lector-
On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote:
>> Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you
>> think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish?
>
>Fairy tale.... Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught
>them?
Some Europeans did...but not the Pilgrims, who had spent the previous 12
or so years living a comfortable middleclass existence in Holland...nor
the Roanoke colonists, who for the most part were upper-middleclass and
lower aristocratics intent on 'making a quick buck' and going back to
England with a lot of money...
The Pilgrims had a real problem trying to grow things in a climate they
had not prepared for...remember, they HAD planned to go to Virginia, but
ended up in Massachusetts due to faulty navigation...
It's a MATTER OR RECORD that by their 3rd year in Massachusetts, they
were starving, and it was only from the native population that they
learned the techniques on WHAT to grow that would survive and thrive, and
be able to be 'put up' to get them thru the winter...
It is also a MATTER OF RECORD that the Indian tribes of the Northeast
lived in eastablished communities devoted to farming, NOT 'foraging and
gathering'...
>> The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent
>> on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional
>> 'gathering'...just like the European settlers...
>
>But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than
>handcrafts.
Now you're changing your tune...your initial objection was that all
Indians just got by with foraging and gathering, and didn't farm...when
that fallacy was pointed out, you now decide that 'manufacturing' is to
be the new standard...
The Inca, Mayans, and Toltecs seem to have been able to 'manufacture'
some pretty sophisticated objects...
>> These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum,
>> and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own
>> Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people...
>
>Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy?
Again, it's a MATTER OF RECORD.
>> >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited
>> >by starving people...
>>
>> The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians
>> when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved,
>> and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food,
>> what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive...
>
>I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and
>fishers....
I never said any such thing...I said the INDIANS were farmers and
fishers...the Europeans who first came here in the 1600s were for the
most part pretty middleclass, more merchants than farmers...
Not many Europeans, English especially, were hunters or fishers, since
hunting and fishing was restricted to the aristocracy, and any lesser
personage daring to do so would have been arrested as a poacher and
recieved a stiff sentence.
June
=======================================================================
The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year,
Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear.
-- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers
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