-Caveat Lector-
Gerald Harp wrote:
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> > There are two rather interesting photographs related to the CSA prison camp
> in Tyler, Texas (Camp Ford). One shows a group of prisoners photographed upon
> their departure from prison.. They were all dressed rather nattily, with frock
> coats, ties, "plantation" hats, etc. In fact, they "could have been dressed
> for the
> ball.
> > "
>
> Shame on you, Hawk. Have you never heard of Potemkin Village?
Why "shame on me"? The photos are available for anyone to see. And, no, I have
not heard of Potemkin Village, at least I have no recollection of it. Does it
have some bearing on prisoners at Camp Ford, Texas?
> I think that the distance between us on how the slaves lived and were treated
> is due to two things.
>
> The living conditions and psychological environment of the slaves varied
> enormously between regions and plantations.
No doubt there was quite a lot of variation.. The same is true of family life,
churches, local politics, etc. That is why "history by anecdote" is limited in
its usefulness to determine "general patterns."
> I place greater credence in the slaves themselves as to what their lives were
> like.
"Greater credence" compared with what? You have to remember that the "Slave
Narratives" were recorded in the mid-1930's (or thereabouts). That was about 70
years after the Civil War ended. Any "first-hand" recollections of life as a
slave would have been based on child-hood experiences, influenced by "family
tradition" passed down by older slaves. When I was a lad, we had several families
of "colored folks" who lived and worked on my grandfather's farm. The patriarc of
that group was "Uncle" John Hardin. He had been a slave, and we sometimes talked
about it because of my interest in "old times" or history -- even as a youth. His
personal recollections were that life was pleasant -- but then, most of his days
were filled with playing and games. He recalled "rumors of war" and how fearful
everyone was when soldiers approached the vicinity (Union or Confederate), and he
recalled being excluded from the family council (because he was too young) that
was held to decide what the ex-slaves were going to do "now that we're free." He
and the other children sneaked under the house and listened to the
debate/conversation. They all decided to "stay at home," and their descendants
are still in that community.
As for placing greater credence on narratives of slaves compared with other
sources, we must remember that one of the conditions of slavery was greatly
reduced (or maybe even the absence of) self-management or personal liberty.
Hardly anyone likes that condition... If we were to conduct "Teen-age Narratives"
of almost any era, we would probably find that they considered their lives
somewhat more "terrible" than the facts would justify... hence the moaning and
groaning about restrictions on their activities, choice of clothing,
entertainment, etc. We'd have to consider A LOT of other evidence along with
their personal feelings. That does not imply that SOME teenagers have had
horrible experiences... it just doesn't support the idea that all have... Again,
history by individual anecdote is limited in the whole scope of things.
> During the 1950s and 1960s when the South was being weaned from Jim
> Crow, it was common for Southern apologists to say things like "Some of my
> best friends..." or "We all got along fine here until those outsiders began
> stirring things up."
One doesn't have to be a "southern apologist" to say those things... It happens to
be true. Surely you aren't saying that "some of the best friends" of white people
were Negroes? And, as for "getting along fine," it is quite true that there was a
lot less turmoil before the 60's... You should NOT infer that I approve of "Jim
Crow" laws. I don't. I do not think there should be any laws requiring or
prohiting personal relationships based on race. However, I do advocate that
people should not be prohibited from being racist "by law." It doesn't work
anyway... Racism has not decreased as a result of "civil rights" laws.
> [My wife attended a YWCA in the South during this time. When she and a friend
> arrived by car to the motel of a small town on their trip, they were frightened
> by the paranoia of the folks in the motel lobby. Many questions aimed at
> determining whether the travelers were there "to stir up trouble."]
And with good reason to be concerned, in my opinion.
> The apologists for slavery in the US are hardly alone, the phenomena is common
> enough. For instance, i have no doubt that if we asked the Japanese who
> participated in the POW camps where American prisoners were held how the
> prisoners were treated. They would assure the questioner that the treatment
> was fair and reasonable.
Some would, some wouldn't. They would no doubt tend to be defensive, especially
considering their wondering WHY you'd be asking such questions.
> My recollection is that Americans died in the Japanese POW camps at a rate 8
> times greater than they died in the camps of Nazi Germany. Nothing is more
> enlightening on this issue than to read Bataan Death March which lets the
> American prisoners speak for themselves.
I agree. But the stories of the GI's has been bolstered by a wealth of additional
and factual information.
> Likewise the ex-slaves speak for themselves. Their opinions vary considerably
> but overall the picture emerges of mostly semi-isolated lives on plantations
> of fewer than 10 slaves having brutal lives of onerous labor in the fields
> with no regard shown for families or respect for person.
When you say "overall the picture emerges," I wonder if you have read the entire
"Slave Narratives." I admit that I haven't, but have read extensive excerpts...
It seems that the excerpts are selected by whoever is trying to prove a point,
both "for" and "against" the "brutal lives of onerous labor" you mentioned. One
clue as to how "onerous and brutal" their lives were would be to look at their
over-all health, diet, and life expectancy. There is little doubt, for instance,
that Negro slaves in the Carribean, and in Central and South America lived lives
as you describe... and their life expectancy supports the contention that they
were "worked to death." On the other hand, slaves in the Southern United States
appear to have lived "quite normal" lives in comparison, and much better than any
other peasant working class in the world. The average life expectancy of all U.S.
whites in 1830 and later was 40 years. Same for Englad and Wales. People in
Holland and France had a 36 year life expectency -- which is exactly that of the
U.S. slave of the time. Italians could look forward to 35 years, Austrians 31
years. On the contrary WHITE people living in Manchester, England and in New
York, Boston, and Philadelphia had a life expectency of only 24 years! It is
difficult to argue against the idea that "quality of life" and "life expectancy"
are related. A comparison of "average daily food consumption" between slaves and
free people shows that the average slave consumed slightly more food that the
average free person(53 oz and 48 oz). The nutrition value of the average slave
diet exceeds the modern-day "recommended daily allowance" by 120% to 1,270%. The
vast majority of slaves lived in their own households containing from 4 to 6
people (wife and two to four children). Child-bearing age and number of children
were essentially the same as whites. (see "Time On the Cross" by Fogel) None of
these things "make a person free," but they do discredit the idea of brutal work
loads and harsh treatment and living conditions.
> Yes, there are exceptions, such as owner buying a comely mulatto girl who could
> sew after a fashion and taking her back home, installing her in a bedroom with a
> a needle and thread and announcing to the Mrs. that they had a new seamstress.
I'm sure it happened... And it happens to this day. But was it the "norm?"
Hardly, considering the fact that in southern states of the time, the number of
mulatto births (a good indication of the amount of mixed-race sexual intercourse)
was -- as an example one mulatto for each 33 blacks (S. Carolina), while in Ohio
there were 14,000 mulattoes to 11,000 blacks. Seems as though the white men in
Ohio were somewhat greater attracted to black females than were the while men in
the South. By the way, the over-all average in the entire United States was one
mulatto to 12 blacks, and that ratio was identical to Virginia's (U.S. census,
1840).
Now, I've been accused of blathering personal opinion without documentation. I'd
like to see someone refute what I have just said with documentation to back it up.
By the way, I recently ran across an interesting web site on this subject. I have
not read it in its entirity, and do not vouch for its accuracy... You might want
to check it out: http://members.tripod.com/~Christian_Rebel/index.htm
And further, there was some contention a while back where American Indians were
praised for their culture. It might interest you to know that according to the
U.S. Census of 1860, quite a few Indians were slave owners. Of the five
"civilized tribes" the number of slaves were:
Choctaw 2,297
Cherokee 2,504
Creek 1,695
Chickasaw 917
Seminole 0
Hawk
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