-Caveat Lector- This message has been posted APFN MESSAGE BOARD: APFN MESSAGE BOARD IS AN OPEN FORUM - POST DIRECTLY http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb77532 "We can secure other people's approval if we do right and try hard. But our own is worth a hundred of it, and no way has been found out of securing that." -- Mark Twain Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond! Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 08:24:30 -0500 From: Carol Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Real-To: Carol Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Please allow me to respond to Ms. Valentine's factually flawed response to criticism of her work: > Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond! > Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 08:48:40 -0500 > From: "Carol A. Valentine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <snip non-valentine comments> > Gary apparently has not read the US government's Treasury Report. On pg. 92 > it describes "former cult members" (note the plural use of the word) who > were in the "Compound" at the time of the raid. > > http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/doc/w_doc16.gif > > These agents were apparently deployed throughout the building, studying and > later reporting the reaction of the Davidians to the news of the impending > ATF raid. > **What the Treasury reports as "former members in the Compound at the time" who later gave the feds information are three people who were members on February 28 and left the building after the raid. One was Victoria Hollingsworth, an elderly lady who lost faith in David Koresh after the raid. One was Kathryn Schroeder who was sent to a federal prison and there seriously intimidated with lies that Hollingsworth's testimony would put her in prison for life and she'd never see her kids again. Both testified at trial against Davidian defendants. And 19 year old Oliver Gyarfas evidently was bullied into giving the feds some information, but but he was allowed to return to Australia and did not testify at trial. When you bother to look at details you see no evidence to support Ms. Valentine's irresponsible and libelous accusations that these people were "government agents." > There is other evidence, though. For example, go to: > > http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/page/w_d.html > > and read "Smart Diagram of the Mt. Carmel Center " and "Dumb Diagram of > the Mt. Carmel Center." You will see evidence that a deep cover > agent/agents were living amongst the Davidians, informing the govt. on the > location of the living quarters and offices of the Davidians before the > raid. > **I have heard that this map was made with information given by Kathryn Schroeder after she was bullied. Some of it may have been supplied by Donald Bunds who was arrested on 2/28 trying to return to Mount Carmel, held during the siege, bullied into giving information, but not called at trial. Neither were government agents before the raid, as Ms. Valentine might infer. > Deep cover agents also took down the ham radio tower before the ATF raid . > . . and set up a virtual test laboratory of surveillance devices within the > Mt. Carmel Center (see London Times article of March 21, 1993 at: > > http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig01.jpg > **This article says nothing of the sort. It merely talks about the kind of surveillance that supposedly was being used *after* the raid happened. Since all residents of Mount Carmel are known, and most are now dead, it would lend some credibility if Ms. Valentine would name these (assumedly still alive) deep cover agents. But she has no evidence and cannot do so. <non valentine material deleted> > C.Moore fails to mention, among other things, that the USHMM helped > President Clinton hide the murders of the Davidians from the US public. > How? > > The inferno at Mt. Carmel had hardly gone out when the USHMM presented > Clinton as guest of honor at the dedication of the USHMM held on *April 19, > 1993.* > > While *affirming* the holocaust of the Jews during WWII, Clinton used the > backdrop of the USHMM dedication to *deny* the Davidian holocaust, and to > make the false claim that the Davidians had committed suicide! > As usual, Ms. Valentine gets her facts wrong. If you go to http://www.pub.whitehouse.gov/retrieve-documents.html you can do a search of press briefings that include Clinton's doings. On 4-19-93 evening he did have a private tour of the Museum. But the actual (long planned) dedication was April 22, 1993. At the time I was disgusted by Clinton's words of outrage vs. Nazi deeds, considering his deeds at Waco. However, I have not seen a transcript of all of his words and would appreciate Ms. Valentine's supplying one to prove that he explicitly mentioned Waco. Also there have been various rumors Clinton met with the Chinese and with Bosnia serbs on April 19. If so, it wasn't a publiclly announced event. > And not one of the "Never Again" crowd opened his mouth or uttered a word > of condemnation or comment on the public slaughter of the Davidian > innocents just hours before! Nor have they ever made any comment or > condemnation since. The USHMM's actions and non-actions concerning Waco is > disgusting and outrageous. **I would certainly prefer they spoke out on that subject and other atrocities worldwide. Writing them letters telling them they are a bunch of frauds for not doing so, as Valentine does, certainly is not the way to convince them!! > Now let's look at the lie USHMM is promoting: > **I won't bother to reprint the rest of Valentine's ravings since I don't want anyone to get confused and think I wrote them. Almost twenty years ago I looked into the claims made by those who deny the Nazis set out to kill as many Jews as they could and found their arguments unimpressive. I was impressed that the Holocaust Museum did include generous references to the Nazi's crimes against other minority groups. Now there are a lot of issues that rational people can discuss regarding the political use of the "Holocaust", Israel, etc etc without becoming either raving anti-semites or "apologists." I don't think Ms. Valentine is capable of rational discourse on the subject because her mind is clouded by bigotry and paranoia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/davidian-massacre.html ========================================================================== Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond! Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 15:35:46 -0600 From: American Injustice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Real-To: American Injustice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Early in the news coverage of the WACO incident, the news coverage detailed the tear gas throwing tanks battering the Davidian compound. A little know fact remains in the minds of a few citizens that watched the show was the shocking reality that the State of Alabama was actively participating in the carnage that was about to happen. If you saw the first news reports, the Alabama State Flag could be seen proudly waving atop one of the battering tanks. Later, the flag disappeared from the news reports and now, each time the story is shown the flag is missing. What happened to the flag? Did the news media edit out the flag to avoid educating the American public about the truth of Alabama aggression against innocent people? Is the news media part of a plot to cover up the truth? How would you feel about your state killing innocent people with war weapons procured with your tax money? >>Subject: Re: Waco Documentary Is A Hoax >>Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:20:17 -0700 >>From: Gary Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Organization: Outpost of Freedom >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ============================================================================ Subject: Re: Why Waco? Patriots Respond! Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 20:49:54 -0700 From: Gary Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: APFN ONELIST <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: "Carol A. Valentine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Please allow me to respond to points made by Gary Hunt[snip]: > > >Subject: Re: Waco Documentary Is A Hoax > >Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:20:17 -0700 > >From: Gary Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Organization: Outpost of Freedom > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >CC: APFN AUTO RESPONDER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Regarding Carol Valentine's post, "Waco Documentary Is A Hoax", > >Valentine has, desperately, attempted to maintain the failed position > >taken by Linda Thompson years ago. What "Waco, The Rules of Engagement" > >does is bring forward more evidence which supports what was believed by > >many and supported by little credible evidence, but with statements made > >in interviews by some of the Davidians. > > > > It is, indeed, unfortunate that the position Valentine and Thompson > >hold requires that some of the Davidians be government agents. > > Gary apparently has not read the US government's Treasury Report. On pg. 92 > it describes "former cult members" (note the plural use of the word) who > were in the "Compound" at the time of the raid. > > http://www.mnsinc.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/doc/w_doc16.gif > > These agents were apparently deployed throughout the building, studying and > later reporting the reaction of the Davidians to the news of the impending > ATF raid. Former cult members include Don Bunds. I interviewed his son during the siege. I have nearly four hours of tapes of that interview. Shortly after I left his home, the FBI removed Don Bunds from the New Road Inn. I suppose I should have interviewed Don first, but, then, he had "company" nearly all of the time. Don had been previously convicted of drug 'crimes'. He was detained at the airport, where he kept his plane, and was coerced into turning against the Davidians. He was the source of much of the information in the original warrant. For whatever reason, he was never called to testify. Now, I don't know if the government's use of the plural form has as much significance as you attribute to it. I'm sure that it had political significance. Is it possible that there were government agents in the building? Yes, I suppose so. And, it is possible that they got out on April 19, 1993. There is no evidence to support this, so I will only allow that it is possible. The people who did get out were tried, if the government could brings charges. Political power was exerted in at least two cases to avoid charges being brought. I would have trouble believing that Kendricks (who was not in Mt. Carmel during the siege) or Doyle (who lost family in the fire) were agents. I would also have trouble believing that those in prison were willing to serve time as a part of their job. Just think of the consequences if they were exposed. So, a few words may have a number of explanations. You may hypothesize all that you wish. I will stick with the logical -- unless some evidence is provided to support a contrary position. > > There is other evidence, though. For example, go to: I will not go to your page to research through what you have referred to with your link. I spent a couple of hours at your site quite a while ago. There is some very good information, but I had great difficulty with your conclusions, and your insistence that there were flame throwing tanks. If what you wish to offer has merit, then, please, present it here. [snip] > Deep cover agents also took down the ham radio tower before the ATF raid . > . . and set up a virtual test laboratory of surveillance devices within the > Mt. Carmel Center (see London Times article of March 21, 1993 at: The devices you speak of were sent in, first, with the milk and videos. The Davidians sent out $1500 and they got 'bugs' for their money. That money was brought up by another reporter during a press conference. I had been barred from the conferences, but found someone to ask the whereabouts of the money. Ricks took a day to come up with his answer. Koresh gave bible study lessons to probably seven different agents monitoring the bugs that were found. Other bugs were set in the walls by robotics devices. This was addressed at one of the conferences. If the London Times is as credible as some of he American press, I give them no more than a "C" for effort. -- Gary Hunt, Outpost of Freedom mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.illusions.com/opf & http://www.committee.org Maillist: http://www.illusions.com:8181/guest/RemoteListSummary/OutPostofFreedom =========================================================================== [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Without Justice, there is JUST-US!" "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." --- Thomas Jefferson "All laws repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." -- United States Supreme Court, Marbury v. Maedison 5 US 137, 1803 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Why Waco? Patriots Respond!
American Patriot Friends Network Sun, 6 Dec 1998 20:26:50 -0500
- Re: [CTRL] Why Waco? Patriots Respond! American Patriot Friends Network
- American Patriot Friends Network
