-Caveat Lector-
Gavin Phillips wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Caveat Lector-
>
> Gavin Phillips wrote:
> >
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > Very good. I have been very busy lately and haven't had much time to read
> the
> > hundreds of posts building in my mailbox. Interesting that nurev turns out
> to
> > be a statist.
>
> I'm done with this subject for now in light of a REALLY dangerous
> situation in
> Europe. But I will reply briefly. I am far less concerned with what
> your
> Libertarian fears are about the state and guns, than you are.
>
> > The government will take care of us, right Nurev? Let the
> > government murderers and cowards of the FBI and ATF have the guns. They did
> > such a great job at Ruby Ridge, Waco, the World Trade Bombing, and the OKC
> > bombing plus the tens of thousands of other illegal activities these 90's
> > gestapo have perpetrated in the last few years (civil asset forfeiture). Yes
> > that's right nurev, we will feel so much safer when they are the only ones
> to
> > have guns. We will then only have government orchestrated mass murder and
> > subjugation.
>
> I am NOT required to take your paranoid foolishness seriously.
>
> Gavin;
> When the government tortures, gases, shoots and incinerates some 80 kids,
> woman and men for absolutely no reason. Paranoid foolishness?
Yes.
>
> Law enforcement shoots a 14 year old in the back and his nursing mother in
> the face, killing them both. Paranoid foolishess?
Yes.
>
> FBI instruct their undecover agent, Elam A. Salem in the New York World Trade
> Center Bombing, not to switch a harmless powder for the bomb and it blows up.
> They then pay him (bribe?) a million dollars for his testimony against the
> supposed bombers. Paranoid foolishness?
Yes.
>
> An ATF agent at the scene in the OKC bombing told Bruce Shaw that there were
> no ATF in the building at the time of the explosions, they were paged and
> told not to go to work that day. Shaws employer overheard this conversation.
> The government is lieing about every aspect of this incident-period. Paranoid
> foolishness?
Yes.
>
> Nurev, you are either incurably ignorant as to the facts in the above cases,
> or worse, you do not care, or the mountain of evidence proving massive
> government malfeasence is inconvenient to your argument so you ignore it.
I'm not doubting government malfeasance. I'm doubting your judgment.
Not all
these pet paranoias are facts either. The reason I answered yes to all
your
your examples of paranoid foolishness is because they have nothing to
do with
YOU.
> > But then that is alright with you, isn't it? You have the gall
> > to advocate taking guns away from American citizens and only giving
> > government agancies the right to have guns. A government completely
> corrupted
> > from the top down. Your hero, rapist, murderer and one of the most thorough
> > going bastards to ever desecrate the White House, Bill Clinton is to be
> > trustes with this power. You believe it is better to have Bill in charge of
> > government agencies who are armed against an unarmed populace?
>
> I think that my position on Government and Clinton is quite clear by
> now. But I don't trust you armed even more than I don't trust the
> Government armed. That's because
> you are a " true believer " with a gun and seemingly nuts to boot. I,
> and apparently
> very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with weapons. How
> about that?
>
> Gavin;
>
> I am not a "true believer" in anything except religious matters.
I hoped this was a joke but it's not. The term " true believer," is
rooted
in religion. It means that you are blinded by your belief system.
> Stop making
> assumptions. I have never shot or owned a gun in my life.
Well I have, and still do.
(except an air gun
> when I was 12. Really powerful, you could see the pellet coming out of the
> barrel). Do us all a favor, and cut down on the purile name calling, it
> doesn't strengthen your argument. ("and seemingly nuts to boot")
It's not to strengthen my argument, it's to express my feelings.
> It seems that you Nurev are starting to become a "true believer" in the
> government's/mainstream media's propaganda swill about why Americans should
> be disarmed.
I'll say it again. It's not that the government's propaganda has
fooled silly
me into thinking that Americans should be disarmed. I HAVE COME TO
THAT
CONCLUSION ON MY VERY OWN. I don't think Americans are sane, mature,
or
responsible enough to own guns. So if the government thinks that way
too for
whatever nefarious reason, I DON'T CARE! At this point in time armed
Americans
are more of a threat to all of us stuck with each other, than the
government.
In your paranoid world ,it's the government that's the biggest threat.
In my
world, its way too many guns in the hands of way too many people that
is the
threat. I DON'T have to buy in to your paranoia.
> Nothing, nothing Billl Clinton does or attempts to do is for the
> good of Americans. He marches to a different tune, his agenda is given to him
> by the people who put him there and who have been covering his backside for
> the last 7 years, and some 60 convenient deaths. The string pullers behind
> the curtain pulling Clintons and many other politicians strings know they
> have to get the guns in order to subjugate us even further. You cannot have a
> dictatorship without first getting the guns. If you are naive enough to
> believe that the whores in Washington are after the guns for our benefit you
> reallly need to hit the books. You really think Clinton, Reno and the many
> other politicopaths give a damn about us.
The reason this is paranoid lunacy, is because, it's a sexy and
dramatic story,
IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
> As for your statement;
> "and apparently very many of your fellow citizens don't trust you with
> weapons. How about that?" As you know, very many of our fellow citizens
> change their opinion more often than their underwear. Their opinion changes
> according to the latest manipulated media poll and what ever is politically
> correct at the time.
And they are changing their minds in my direction. Every shooting and
massacre
will be another nail in the coffin of the NRA.
> If the time ever came when the government passed a law
> to ban all weapons and there were hundreds of Wacos going on, you might find
> their opinion rapidly changing. Don't count on support from sheep. They go
> wherever public opinion and emotion herds them.
They go wherever they see safety for their children. And that's OK
because
that's their job. They are coming to the conclusion that there is easy
access to
guns, and it's now scaring them.
> > You so quickly forget history's many lessons of dictators disarming the
> > citizenry only to be followed by genocide. What about the Warsaw uprising in
> > which a handful of Jews took on and held their own for quite some time
> > against the Nazis' s after they had managed to obtain some firearms. Preach
> > your statism in Beijing where I'm certain they will also secretly hold you
> in
> > contempt. Your views on inalienable human rights are particularly revealing;
The Jews died. But what does this have to do with YOU?
I am not a Statist. If I were I would say so. I don't consider it an
insult. I
consider Libertarianism to be an insult. And I'm not against human
rights. In
fact, I spend much of my time as an activist for human rights. But
there is no
such thing as " inalienable " rights, just as there is no such thing
as virgin
births, and coming back to life after you die. These are all beliefs
of a true
believer and just because they are your beliefs, that doesn't mean
they are one
whit real. What is real is the astronomical number of gunshot
tragedies every
single day.
> Yes these things happened. But they are only a POSSIBILITY at this
> point in this country. Why should I take your word for it that you can see the
> future? What IS A FACT is that there are far too many gun related deaths NOW.
>
> Gavin;
>
> A possibility which is becoming a very realistic reality if you study the
> dozens of illegal and pernicious activities of our government/depsots in the
> last 20 years in particular. I cannot see the future. But I can see many
> hundreds of thousands more gun related deaths if they try to ban guns
> completely, and possibly civil war. There are many states which would refuse
> to give up guns, with law enforcement lining up alongside the citizens.
Good. Let's see you put your guns where your mouths are.
> Do you really think banning guns in this country would significantly reduce
> gun related deaths
Yes. Very much.
> given the massive black market that would take place of
> your local gunsmiths? Criminals will still be able to obtain guns, and
> probably easier than before because they always had to get them through the
> black market anyway.
Really? How do you know this is what would happen? Is this another one
of
your visions?
snip>
> >
> > Not only Hitler and Mao, Jim. Also George Bush and Bill and Hilary Clinton
> > along with many Congressman and Senators. Conceptual only to a wanton
> > socialist like yourself, Nurev.
>
> I'm not a Socialist. But, I don't mind them either. I much prefer
> socialists
> to Libertarians.
>
> Gavin;
>
> I am not a Libertarian, but I much prefer them to Socialists.
And that's what makes America what it is.
> > Rights only subscribed by the gun toting ATF
> > murderer at your doorstep and fully endorsed by Nurev. How comforting. You
> > talk about our basic human rights being a conceptual legal concept, what
> > utter nonsense.
snip>
> Don't get me wrong, There is nothing wrong with establishing "
> rights." It's just that you like to forget that your rights depend on all of
> us.
> Things are changing rapidly with relation to guns. I like how they are
> changing.
> You don't. If you are smart, you will make the best of it.
>
> Joshua2
>
> Gavin;
> I do not forget that my rights depend upon others recognizing and wanting the
> same rights.
Wrong. Your rights depend on not bumping into the desires of the elite
or the
desires of the majority.
> You want to give up the right for law abiding citizens to bear
> arms because you will feel safer when only criminals and government appointed
> agencies have guns.
You almost made sense here but then ruined it with your silly paranoid
crap. I
will feel safer when NONE of you have guns.
> The whores in Washington and mainstream media schills
> have done a great job on you.
Not so. Actually I've don quite a good job on them.
>
> nessie wrote:
> >
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > >>I wish to avert that violence because I live in this society, and I
> > don't want to go down with it.
> >
> > If you think you can avert violence by not being ready to counter it, you
> > are a fool. Violence is part of life; it is NOT going away just because
> > some people wish it to. Violence has been part of life since the first
> > aomeba ate the first protazoa; get used to it.
>
> I may be more used to it than you. I grew up and worked in the
> toughest
> neighborhoods in NYC. I was on the receiving end of a major war.
>
> > Violence is not evil.
> > Violence is not good. Violence just is.
>
> Not at all. Violence is failure. The only justification for violence
> iself defense. Real self defense not your paranoid fantasies of a
> future that may or may not happen.
>
> Gavin;
>
> That's right. Violene is failure. Unfortunately it will never be erradicated,
> especially with the likes of the ATF, FBI and other government gestapo
> harrassing and murdering Americans. Real self defence? What is your
> definition of real self defence. No knock warrants, government agencies
> trashing your house looking for drugs or guns which they cannot find because
> they were never there in the first place. Government seizing your house, car,
> other belongings because they found some marijuana.
Bad...bad government.
> According to the future that you seem to relish Nurev is a total gun ban
Yes that's right. And voluntary compliance from law abiding citizens.
It
doesn't need to be permanent either. But I want to see what happens
when
guns are out of the equation. And it looks like we'll soon find out.
> and
> the government sending in the military on house to house searches in order to
> get them, (because that is the only way they will get them)and the massive
> social upheaval and body count that that will entail. Things will be far more
> peacful then, right Nurev?
No not then, after then.
> There will be civil war the likes of which we have
> never seen. Far fewer gun related deaths? I don't think so.
There you go with your apocalyptic visions again. Most of you big
talkers
will give up your guns like pussycats. Some will fight it out. It's
just
natures way of improving the gene pool.
> snip>
> Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant
> that the police are useless.
>
> Gavin;
>
> First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal
> to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been
> for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban?
I don't know and neither do you. What we do know is that they had no
trouble
at all getting the guns they did.
snip>
> > "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." --
> > Malcolm X
>
> So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are
> they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no.
> they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians
> in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a
> Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world.
>
> Gavin;
>
> As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the
> gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other.
> The vast majority of
> them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that
> doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban.
>
You don't KNOW that, and I want to find out for myself.
> >
> > >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence.
> >
> > And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery.
>
> And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves
> get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put
> your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the
> 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body."
> Prove Darwin right.
>
> Gavin;
>
> Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave.
Good I'm glad you take that position. It proves that if your brain is
defective
you are not likely to pass it on to another generation. Love that
Darwin.
> Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought
> for it. Nurev, is everybody who owns a gun because they fear a despotic
> government, the reason the founding fathers gave us the 2nd Ammendment in the
> first place, all "gun nuts."
Sure.
> The vast majority of the people in the gun
> culture are law abiding citizens who see a depraved leader and an out of
> control law enforecment doing what ever they want. You suck up the
> government's propaganda so well, I thought you had more sense than that.
I have good sense. I want easy access to guns eliminated.
> Are the ATF and FBI etc. gun nuts too,
You bet!
> or are they okay because they work for
> the government. The ATF and FBI have toally discraced themselves in the last
> few years with there constant lies, witness intimidation, murders, cover-ups
> and wholsale cowardice. If you are so proud of them and obviously seem to
> think that they do a good job, why not join up, put your money where your
> mouth is, get some blood on your hands. But watch your back jack, because
> those boys will have you going through the door first every time.
You watch too many movies man.
> As for Darwin, I wouldn't put much credence in his hypothesis. He was the man
> who said he didn't see any problems with a bear turning into a whale, given
> enough time.(snicker)I suppose given enough time, hippo's will fly, and then
> we'll all be in the shit.
Listen, you are a loony. Darwin is no longer a hypothesis. Only in
your fantasy
world of religion could you make an idiotic statement like that. But
you're
not in church. This is open discussion and your presumptions of
superstitious
nonsense don't cut it.
>snip>
> It's coming. Just a few more massacres. Bye bye Smith & Wesson.
>
> Joshua2
>
> Gavin;
> Stop drooling over a few more massacres. As long as it's somebody else who
> gets murdered you and the worthless scum in Washington can keep on pushing
> their new gun laws. As long as it's somebody elses misery. Like I said befoe
> Nurev, join up, get your hands bloody, or do you prefer to sit on the
> sidelines and let others do the killing, to stop the killing?!
"Those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword."
snip>
> Gavin;
>
> He's right on the money. We all see you are eager with anticipation at the
> coming war between gun owners and the government. As I have pointed out on
> numerous occasions, passing a total gun ban will not stop the killing, it
> will exacerbate it a 1000 fold. Whole States will refuse to abide by it. 95%+
> politicians in America today are bought. On both sides of this issue. Do you
> really believe that all the mass shootings is the product of people
> constantly going insane. How convenient for Bill Clinton that these incidents
> greatly incites the sheople to support more and more gun laws. What a
> coincidence. Unfortunately I don't believe in recurring "coincidences" which
> keep benefiting Bill's agenda.
Do you even read what you write?
>
> Live with it or die, right?
No. Live with it and live.
snip>
> Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns.
> Period.
>
> Gavin;
> Millions of armed citizens is a very large obstacle to overcome. Do you
> really see the ATF and FBI putting their heads in the crosshairs when the
> gloves come off and it's open season on government agencies? The military
> would have to be called in. But the situation would be far more complex than
> the simple scenario you seem to see Nurev. It is a totally different
> situation asking American soldiers to kill Americans for defending their 2nd
> Ammendment rights, even if the politicians have managed to manufacture enough
> "mass shootings" in order to ban all guns. Many of our military personnel
> despise Bill Clinton and see him as a totally self serving and worthless sack
> of shit that he is. Many would help people standing against his gun ban,
> either join them or supply them with more sophisticated weaponry. Many would
> ask why? Why does Bill Clinton, who has displayed a total disregard for the
> rights of Americans and lacks any credibility whatsoever, want to ban guns?
> Bill Clinton, who has repeatedly refused to aknowledge the terrible suffering
> by tens of thousands of Gulf War Vets afflicted with Chemical and biological
> poisoning, or to do something useful about it. When they start asking these
> and other questions your simplistic version becomes nonsense. It would be
> wholesale slaughter, either way you look at it. It would not be a simple case
> of the military running around and collecting the guns.
You are an apocalyptic lunatic. And it won't be Clinton at all. It
will probably
be a Republican.
> The Branch Davidians could have opened fire any time they wanted on the ATF
> who pulled up in noisy cattle trucks in a virtually treeless terrain. They
> didn't because they were not looking for trouble. The ATF and other
> government scum were. They were looking to make a big splash in the papers
> just in time for the upcoming appropriations meeting who decide how much
> money to allocate the ATF. Time for a dog and pony show. There could well
> have been other nefarious agendas at work also.
>
> How long do you think the many millions of Americans who get their
> "news-bytes" from Channel 5 and 7 etc. are going to start changing their
> opinions the instant thousands of Americans start killing each other.
Thousands of Americans ARE killing each other.
snip>
> This is wishful thinking. It bears no resemblance to reality. The US
> Government is the most powerful entity in all of history.
>
> Gavin;
>
> Run by Americans, for Americans. Not for the oligarchy who want to enslave
> us.
You are enslaved. With guns or without guns.
> I think enough of them will realize the ruse and the attempted gun
> confiscation will backfire badly.
We shall see. I'll bet you a buck that there would be very little
resistance.
> Gavin;
>
> As I said before. Gun violence will continue especially with the flourishing
> black market gun trade which will fill the vacuum.
Black markets only exist because they are permitted to exist by the
powers that be. Random searches for guns, and mandatory sentencing for
long periods of time for possession will quickly dry up the market.
Black
or otherwise.
snip>
> Gavin;
>
> That is right, of course the NRA have an agenda to perpetuate arms
> manufacture. Of course there are prostituted politicians on both sides of the
> issue. What's new? Do you want to be enslaved by a meglomaniacal rapist
> sociopath such as Bill Clinton or his replacement? I would only get myself
> killed defending myself or someone else form being killed or fighting for
> liberty. There you go again with your specious evolution analogy's.
Take your medicine dude.
snip>
> And where will your women and children be? Fort Knox?
>
> Gavin;
>
> What's your point? ATF/FBI burnt and shot those people to death.
>
> >
> > > The only thing that could have saved them was an
> > > outcry
> > > from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the
> > > rest of
> > > your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process
> > > that
> > > we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T COMPLY?
> > >
> > > Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns.
> > > Period.
> >
> > If this society is too sick to have easy access to guns then one must
> > ask the question: Why is it too sick now when 200 years ago the leaders
> > of our country thought the opposite?
>
> POPULATION!!!!!!
>
> Gavin;
>
> Population is the smallest part of the problem.
No, actually population is the biggest part of the problem. Most gun
deaths
happen in the densely populated areas. Population overload causes a
breakdown
of societal cohesion do to stress. Stress + density + guns = lots of
shootings.
Guns are the easiest part of the equation to deal with. That's why it
will
happen.
> A system which promotes the group above the individual. You must go
> along to get along. Conforming is the name of the game.
I hate to break this to you because I know you think you are the image
of god
& stuff, but you are a social anthropoid. That means in nature your
survival
depends on the group. You are not crazy enough to argue this point are
you?
>
> The massive rise in the cost of living in the last 20 years especially. Most
> family's today both parents work and still live from paycheque to paycheque.
> Many families one or more parents is working two jobs and or going back to
> school. School loans, credit card debt, work work work to try and keep ahead
> of the massive inflation created by the oligarchy who run the Fedeal Reserve,
> the most powerful private organization in America. These are some of the
> reasons.
>
Yes these are some of the reasons people are stressed out. That's why
they
should not have guns. And if they took the money they would save by
NOT buying
a gun, they could invest it in Arnold Schwartzenegger's next violent
movie,
and earn a better living.
What a country.
--
"And it came to pass that in the last days catatonics
roamed the earth, and great monsters ruled the masses."
---------------- Joshua II ----------------
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