-Caveat Lector-
goolie smith wrote:
> > > -Caveat Lector-
> > >
> > > <sigh>
> > >
> > > ok, give me the answers to these questions
> > >
> > > Was Ariel Sharon in command of the occupied area where the massacres
> >took
> > > place ?
> >
> >Yes he was.
> >
> > >
> > > Is there a Geneva convention (4th) which places responsibility of a
> > > population upon the person in charge ?
> >
> >I don't know. But if there is, that's not the law under which Sharon is
> >being charged. It is a special law recently enacted but it's not clear
> >to me by whom.
> >
>
> Special law ? to be a war criminal you have to break the Geneva conventions
> and they have been in force for over 50 years.
This is a new arrangement created in Belgium. The Palestinians are not coming
before the United Nations to enforce the Geneva Conventions. They are bringing
their case to Belgium. By the way, the USA has not recognized either Belgium
OR the World Court in the Hague. They are afraid that what is happening to
Sharon could happen to the American military any where in the world. It's
hard to maintain a criminal empire when you can be brought up on charges. For
this reason they will grudgingly skunk the trial. Because they hate Sharon.
They can't control him like they can Peres and the Laborites.
> ariel sharon has broken the
> geneva conventions pretaining to the safeguarding of civilians at a time
> when the land is occupied
>
> since you do not know and might not believe me ill give you a link and you
> can find out for yourself. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
> Im hoping that you'll trust the site, it is the United Nations site after
> all.
>
> >Are you well versed in international law?
> >
> > > Are you jewish ?
> >
> >Yes.
> >
> > > These questions should sort it out, the first two will show why sharon
> > > should be indicted as a war criminal,
>
> >No they don't. You don't know that law. You are making presumptions based
> >on ignorance. For Sharon to be indicted as a war criminal he would have
> >to have had intent. Further more, it would have to be proven.
>
> please dont lecture me on law, and if you were brave enough you would debate
> without having to resort to mud slinging.
>
> War crimes do not have to show or prove intent, crimes against humanity and
> genocide however do need to. Ariel sharon is NOT being accused of crimes
> against humanity or genocide. However he is being accused of breaking
> geneva conventions.
Ok Goolie I won't lecture you on Belgian law. Since you sound so confident,
I will presume that you are a lawyer. Maybe you can explain this...
Chibli Mallat, one of the lawyers filing the case, has
explicitly stated that the "The complaint is filed against Ariel Sharon, Amos
Yaron and any Israeli or Lebanese person responsible for *** genocide, crimes
against humanity,*** and war crimes that happened between the 16th and 18th of
September, including the killing, torture, rape and "disappearance" of from
1000 to 3500 civilians - children and women as well as men, Lebanese as well
as Palestinians".
By the way, you'll notice the number of dead is really unknown. But when it's
presented by the Palestinians, it gets bigger and bigger. Do you have any idea
what it takes to kill 3,500 people and then get rid of the bodies?
>
> If you still do not believe me, here is another link
> http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ign0
> This link is the ministry of foriegn affairs of the israeli goverment. This
> site details a report by Yitzhak Kahan commissioned to find out what
> happened. What it found was that Ariel sharon was indirectly responsible
> for the killings but directly responsible for disregarding the safety of the
> people at the camps
The Kahan Commission needed to produce a scapegoat to appease world opinion.
So they did. Sharon got a slap on the wrist. He was forced to resign as
defense minister. But he was right back in government when the Likud regained
power. I don't see much value in the Kahan Commission's work. I see it as
a cover up.
> Look, nurev, be brave and be a man to know what is right, Im not backing
> arafat, syrians, egyptians, israelis or anyone else.
I believe that you believe what you are saying. But you are wrong. You are
in fact backing the PLO in a very important maneuver.
> In fact i would like to
> see their cumuppance. I am also not attacking the jews/israelis, but what i
> am humbly trying to do is show you that a man who should be indicted and at
> LEAST tried for war crimes is now in control of a very powerful country. Do
> you not agree that he should be at least tried ?
Yes I do. I love it when Elites get busted. ANY elites. But you have got to
understand the politics of what is going on here. This case is being used as a
political weapon against the Israeli head of state. THE MOST FEARED Israeli
head of state that Israel's enemies have ever faced. It's an AMAZING
COINCIDENCE that those at war with the Israeli leader are bringing these charges
against him AT THIS TIME. Whether he is guilty as charged ( and I am not yet
convinced that he is ) is not the point of my posting. My point is as stated.
That the reason for bringing it now is to defang him, or even better, get
him replaced. THAT is the point of all this. Then the Palestinians win this
war. They have successfully destabilized five Israeli governments and ruined
four political careers and managed to help get one assassinated. It's not going
to happen again.
These very same Palestinians had 20 years to try. Today they have correctly
assessed that the world is ready to play out this game. But while people like
you look at this situation earnestly, the Palestinians are pulling a fast one.
It won't work. The Israelis are not the Serbs. To be bought off when their
security is at stake. Further more, Lebanon and Syria don't want this trial
either. There will be hell to pay. Because in the end, they did the killing.
This is all a dead end.
That's all I'm trying to put out.
> The Kahan commission has already found him guilty.
The Kahan Commission did not find him guilty of what the Palestinians are
trying to charge him with.
J2
>
> >As it stands now,
> >propaganda aside, he had the nearby sport stadium cleaned and ready to move
> >the inhabitants of Sabra and Shatilla into for identification. He was
> >looking
> >for Arafat's glorious fighters left behind to start new terrorist cells.
> >There
> >were also Shiites, Muslim Arabs who lived in that neighborhood before the
> >Palestinians flooded in. The Israelis had no truck with these people.
> >
> >========================================
> >
> >
> >Sharon sued in Belgium over 1982 Palestinian massacres
> >
> >BRUSSELS
> >8 JUNE 2001
> >http://metimes.com/2K1/issue2001-23/reg/sharon_sued_in.htm
> >
> >Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is being sued in a Belgian court
> >for the 1982 massacres of 800 to 2,000 Palestinian civilians in
> >Lebanese refugee camps, the daily Le Soir reported on June 1.
> >
> >The suit was filed under a unique 1993 law that allows Belgian courts
> >to try persons here, regardless of their nationality, for genocide
> >and other crimes against humanity committed abroad.
> >
> >Sharon was due to visit Brussels next week, but Israeli television
> >reported the prime minister had cancelled the trip in the wake of a
> >suicide bomb attack in Tel Aviv, which killed 17 people.
> >
> >The newspaper said Belgian judicial authorities were studying whether
> >the suit against him was admissible under terms of the law, which is
> >currently being used to try four Rwandans in connection with the 1994
> >genocide in their central African country.
> >
> >The plaintiffs in the suit against Sharon are a mix of Palestinians,
> >Lebanese, Moroccans and Belgians grouped in an ad hoc committee.
> >
> >They accuse Sharon of allowing Christian militias to slaughter
> >between 800 and 2,000 Palestinian refugees at the Sabra and Shatila
> >camps located in an area of Lebanon controlled by the Israeli
> >military after Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon when Sharon was
> >defense minister.
> >
> >An Israeli commission of enquiry in 1983 found Sharon indirectly
> >responsible for the killings, a finding that forced him to resign his
> >post.
> >
> >And the United Nations has officially classified the Sabra and
> >Shatila killings as acts of genocide, Eric David, international law
> >professor at the Free University of Brussels, told Le Soir.
> >
> >Last January, when he was campaigning for prime minister, Sharon
> >expressed his regrets for the "terrible tragedy" of the 1982
> >massacres, but refused to apologize.
> >
> >"What it was," he said in a press interview, "was an act of killing
> >carried out by Arab Christians against Arab Muslims."
> >
> >Arabs also blame Sharon for provoking the current intifada with his
> >visit to east Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque compound, the third holiest
> >site in Islam, last September 28.
> >
> >[ Which is also false, but pervasive PLO propaganda. - J2 ]
> >
> >AFP
> >=========================================
> >
> >Tribunal head: I didn't say Sharon is indictable
> >
> >By David Zev Harris and Michal Meyer
> >http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/06/20/News/News.28659.html
> >
> >JERUSALEM (June 20) - The BBC Panorama documentary on the role of
> >Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla is continuing to
> >cause waves in Israel and in judicial circles.
> >
> >A leading international war-crimes lawyer, who participated in the
> >program, is insisting he did not say Sharon should be indicted for
> >his role in the massacre of Palestinian refugees in the Lebanese
> >camps.
> >
> >Despite reports to the contrary, Judge Richard Goldstone said he told
> >the BBC he would talk about international war-crimes law in general
> >but would not speak about the specifics of Sharon's involvement.
> >Goldstone, a former chief prosecutor for the UN's criminal tribunals,
> >made his comments in an interview with Jerusalem Post Radio.
> >
> >The following is taken from the official transcript of the BBC
> >program:
> >
> >Panorama: "I understand that as a judge in a South African court, you
> >don't want to get into labelling people in other countries as 'war
> >criminals,' but in your assessment of command responsibility, isn't
> >it reasonable to say that if responsibility goes all the way to the
> >top, to the person who gave the orders, that potentially makes Ariel
> >Sharon a war criminal?"
> >
> >Goldstone: "Well, it depends very much on the facts, but if the
> >person who gave the command knows, or should know, on the facts
> >available to him or her that there's a situation where innocent
> >civilians are going to be injured or killed, then that person is as
> >responsible - in fact, in my book more responsible, even - than the
> >people who carry out the orders."
> >
> >In his interview with Jerusalem Post Radio, Goldstone said: "I agreed
> >to speak to [the BBC] as an expert on the law in general, on command
> >responsibility, but I said I would not in any way comment on any
> >liability, criminal or civil, of Ariel Sharon and I didn't do so.
> >
> >"I haven't yet seen the program, but if it comes across that way it's
> >incorrect... I certainly didn't comment on the responsibility of
> >Sharon."
> >
> >The program was broadcast in the same week a Belgian court begins
> >considering whether Sharon can be brought to trial for his part in
> >the 1982 massacre.
> >
> >At least 23 survivors of the Christian Phalange militia rampage in
> >the camps are trying to see those responsible are put behind bars.
> >
> >Their lawyer, Michael Verhaeghe, claims those responsible include
> >then defense minister Sharon, Maj.-Gen. (res.) Amos Yaron, who was
> >chief infantry and paratroop officer, and the Phalangists, who did
> >the actual killing.
> >
> >In an interview with Jerusalem Post Radio, Verhaeghe said all that
> >interests his clients is justice.
> >
> >"These crimes being the most serious offenses possible, also in
> >Belgian national order and in international order, the maximum
> >sentence is life imprisonment," said Verhaeghe. "According to our
> >legal analysis, we consider [Sharon] to be morally responsible... In
> >our file there are more-than-sufficient indications of guilt."
> >
> >Later today, a magistrate will be officially appointed to investigate
> >the matter.
> >
> >The Palestinians do not have Belgian citizenship, but Verhaeghe
> >maintains they have the right to bring the matter to a court in
> >Brussels. In 1993, Belgian law was changed to allow this type of
> >complaint to be filed by non-nationals. This, said Verhaeghe, was in
> >line with the Nuremberg, Tokyo, and Eichmann decisions.
> >
> >However, Ruth Lapidot, a professor of international law at Hebrew
> >University, believes it is highly unlikely Sharon will be brought to
> >trial, given the rulings contained in the 1949 Fourth Geneva
> >Convention, which deals with the protection of people in times of
> >war.
> >
> >"It says... 'they have an obligation to search for persons alleged to
> >have committed or to have ordered to be committed,' which means the
> >penal sanctions apply only to a person who either has committed
> >himself or has ordered to be committed some of these terrible deeds,"
> >Lapidot explained.
> >
> >The International Committee of the Red Cross interpretation of the
> >convention suggests no legal responsibility is incurred by those who
> >do not intervene to prevent or to put an end to a breach of the
> >convention, she noted.
> >
> >Two additional considerations make it unlikely that Verhaeghe's
> >mission will succeed, said Lapidot. "Heads of states and prime
> >ministers cannot be brought to trial while serving, according to
> >international law."
> >
> >Additionally, if Belgian law is not in conformity with international
> >law, Belgian jurisdiction could be ruled out. "The Belgian court can
> >exercise universal jurisdiction with regard to offenses under
> >international law but not offenses which the Belgians think are
> >appropriate."
> >
> >Despite Lapidot's skepticism, the Belgian magistrate, known as the
> >judge of instruction, will spend the coming weeks deciding what
> >action should be taken, including whether to call witnesses and to
> >hold a full trial before a jury. The magistrate's work is secret in
> >the first stage, while he or she is acting on behalf of the state.
> >
> >Asked how long Sharon would have to serve in jail if found guilty,
> >Verhaeghe cited the Rwandan war criminals recently sentenced in
> >Belgium to a 15-year-term, saying they will actually serve five or
> >six years.
> >
> >To hear the full interviews with Goldstone, Verhaeghe, and Lapidot,
> >click on www.jpostradio.com.
> >
> >© 1995-2001, The Jerusalem Post
> >====================================
> >
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