--- Begin Message ---"NORAD did not have a helicopter following AA77".
That just shows NORAD is irrelevent and a distraction
in this discussion.There was a helicopter following AA77, and NORAD
didn't know about it, so who invited NORAD to say
anything about the helicopter, Andrews TRACON
aliased as "FAA controlling domestic skies", and
Andrews military radar and two fighter squadrons,
and non-NORAD decentralized tasking of Andrews
to respond to anomalies in or near restricted air
space, and for that matter the FORMAL policy for
non-military "FAA" i.e. non-Andrews TRACONs
as far as informing Andrews or designated bases
when anomalies become apparent.NORAD, butt out. NORAD is a distraction. Saying
"FAA control" instead of TRACON is misleading, since
Andrews has a TRACON and is part of the unified
Potomac TRACON airspace, alias "FAA control".
Andrews has done "FAA" flight control for Reagan
National when National's equipment failed.-Bob
Dan Russell wrote:
> over dinner this evening a friend challenged me re: the timeline of
> American Airlines flight 77 (the one that hit the pentagon). I've been
> checking various mainstream news sources and have been surprised to
> find that they tend to start their timelines with the first hit on the
> WTC, not with the actual highjackings.that's Norad's timeline, at
http://www.spacecom.af.mil/norad/presrelNORADTimelines.htmhttp://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=381
"American Flight 77 left Dulles International Airport at 8:10. Its planned
route would take it over northern Virginia and West Virginia, towards Los
Angeles International. Just after turning south and crossing the
Ohio-Kentucky border, the plane's transponder (which makes it more visible
and identifiable on radar, as well as reporting its altitude to controllers)
was turned off; so its exact flight path is not known. At 9:40 AM, the plane
crashed into the ground next to the west side of the Pentagon."but the FAA's awareness began with the actual hijackings - I assume that
means when the transponder was turned off - can the FAA's civil radar skin
paint? the above comment seems to say it can't. Also, what coordination
does the FAA have with its Kentucky eyes and the national system? Bob and I
have gone back and forth about this, and the
http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-1.htm article outlines what
firepower was actually available at Andrews. I asked Norad Pulbic Affairs:
EDWARD W. THOMAS, JR., Major, USAF
Chief of National Affairs
US Space Command Public Affairs
tele: (719) 554-2608 DSN: 692-2608
[EMAIL PROTECTED]"Given the availability of military as well as civilian-type Radar Approach
Control systems at Andrews - that is, the availability of the 121st Fighter
Squadron (FS-121) of the 113th Fighter Wing (FW-113), equipped with F-16
fighters; and the 321st Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA-321) of the
49th Marine Air Group, Detachment A (MAG-49 Det-A), equipped with F/A-18
fighters - the availability of E-2's, and other long-range aerial vision -
why wasn't Flt 77seen coming from a long way off?"He gave me boilerplate about Norad's mission, not untrue, and referred me to
Public Affairs at Andrews: 301-981-6250, and the FAA's Ms Allison Dukat at
202-267-8674:Your question is a reasonable one, however it presupposes that NORAD or
another military agency had the mission of either controlling US airspace,
or at a minimum, looking inward and monitoring US airspace. In a normal
peacetime environment, that mission falls squarely on the FAA. NORAD's
mission prior to 11 Sep was to look outward for any space or air-breathing
airborne threat. This includes cruise missiles, strategic bombers, ICBMs,
or even a hijacked airliner heading towards North American airspace. While
NORAD share's many radar pictures with the FAA, NORAD's primary radar
capability has been focused outward from our borders. Since 11 Sep, our
mission has expanded to include response to domestic air threats. The FAA,
however, remains the primary agency for controlling and monitoring US Air
Space.
Our interface and communication with the FAA has increased significantly to
ensure the most expeditious response by NORAD to any potential air threat
that is identified by the FAA. Changes include a manned 24-hour hotline
with the FAA/ multiple NORAD liaisons assigned to the FAA and more FAA
liaisons assigned to NORAD."Wouldn't the lack of a transponder beacon have painted that plane for an
E-2, or for some of Andrews' other military radar equipment?"The military does have the capability to "skin paint" aircraft using
specific radar. However, the military does not actively monitor US domestic
air traffic regardless of whether the aircraft are squawking or not.I again asked "But Andrews is tasked with DC protection - wouldn't Andrews
have automatically fielded/utilized whatever radar eyes it had, given the
clear possibility of military threat to DC? Andrews had 40 minutes warning.
Wouldn't the first crashes at the WTC have alerted Andrews, or some other
facility, to begin military monitoring of US airspace asap - given that a
domestic military threat was clearly established? "I was again referred to Andrews pulbic affairs - which, I guess, will return
my call after Christmas, if ever."Also, what was a helicopter doing following Flt 77 in? If a chopper could
get to it, why not a fighter?"NORAD did not have a helicopter following Flight 77. (end)
The issue of FAA coordination with Norad and Andrews is not a phony one -
there's been a lot of confusion and technical failure over the past few
years - quite a few planes have crashed into or overflown the White House
without being stopped. This is by no means an historically sharp system.What was looking at flt 77 when it was over KY - that is, what will the FAA
will tell me was looking - and what was the coordination of that with
Norad - and Andrews? Given all that hardware and military radar at Andrews,
as well as a redundant civilian-type Radar Approach Control system, with,
apparently, a 50-mile radius of vision, the lack of response does indeed
seem implausible - on the other hand, there is this history of failed
reliance on the bureaucratic FAA - replete with bitter turf wars, union
fights and antiquated equipment - and the reality that the system has often
been caught completely unprepared. The situation was unique, and there
are no standing orders to blow hijacked planes out of the sky - but there
were standing orders to protect DC airspace.....Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "mwlaird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:28 PM
Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] question re: attack on the Pentagon
> over dinner this evening a friend challenged me re: the timeline of
> American Airlines flight 77 (the one that hit the pentagon). I've been
> checking various mainstream news sources and have been surprised to
> find that they tend to start their timelines with the first hit on the
> WTC, not with the actual highjackings. CNN is the one exception I
> found (I'm not pretending to have been thorough), but their account
> contains information that contradicts the articles in Emperor's
> Clothes:
> <<<9:25 a.m.: FAA notifies NORAD that United flight 77 may have been
> hijacked.
> 9:27 a.m.: (approximate time) NORAD orders jets scrambled from Langley
> Air Force Base in Virginia to head to intercept United Airlines flight
> 77.
> 9:35 a.m.: Three F-16 Fighting Falcons take off from Langley AFB headed
> toward Washington area.
> 9:37 a.m.: American Airlines flight 77 is lost from radar screens.
> 9:38 a.m.: American Airlines flight 77 strikes the Pentagon.>>>
>
> no mention of Andrews, but they claim that there was an attempt to
> intercept AA77.
>
> What do you think? are they correct? If anyone has background on this
> I'd appreciate it if you would post it.
>
> -- Michael
>
> Here's the full article:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.hijack.warning/index.html
>
> Officials: Government failed to react to FAA warning
> September 17, 2001 Posted: 9:12 AM EDT (1312 GMT)
> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The federal government failed to heed a warning
> from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to evacuate key
> Washington buildings following Tuesday's terrorist attacks on the World
> Trade Center, senior Defense Department officials told CNN.
> The officials said no action was taken for at least 12 minutes after
> the FAA warned the military's air defense command that a hijacked
> airliner appeared to be headed toward Washington.
> Only after the 9:38 a.m. impact into the side of the Pentagon were
> other government buildings evacuated, including the White House and the
> Capitol.
> The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) at Peterson Air
> Force Base in Colorado was informed by the FAA at 9:25 a.m. that
> American
> Airlines flight 77 might have been hijacked and appeared headed toward
> Washington.
> Military officials at NORAD ordered fighter jets from Langley Air Force
> Base in Virginia to intercept the flight, but neither the FAA, NORAD,
> nor any other federal government organization made any effort to
> evacuate the buildings in Washington.
> Officials at the Pentagon said that no mechanism existed within the
> U.S. government to notify various departments and agencies under such
> circumstances.
> Officials also told CNN that President George W. Bush had not given
> authorization to the Defense Department to shoot down a passenger
> airliner until after the Pentagon had been struck.
> Officials at the Pentagon also said that they were never made aware of
> the threat from hijacked United Airlines flight 93 until after it
> crashed in Pennsylvania.
> The informed defense officials laid out a timeline of the events
> surrounding the series of terrorist attacks as follows: (Times are EDT
> and reflect actual, rather than scheduled departure times of flights.)
> 7:59 a.m.: American Airlines flight 11 takes off from Boston's Logan
> International Airport.
> 8:14 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 takes off from Boston's Logan
> International Airport.
> 8:20 a.m.: American Airlines flight 11 stops transmitting IFF beacon
> signal while over the Hudson River.
> 8:20 a.m.: American Airlines flight 77 departs Dulles International
> Airport near Washington.
> 8:38 a.m.: Boston air traffic center notifies NORAD that American
> Airlines flight 11 has been hijacked.
> 8:43 a.m.: FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines flight 175 has been
> hijacked.
> 8:44 a.m.: Otis Air National Guard Base in Mass. orders to fighters
> scrambled.
> 8:46 a.m.: American Airlines flight 11 strikes the World Trade Center's
> north tower.
> 8:47 a.m.: NORAD informed of the plane striking the World Trade Center.
> 8:50 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 deviates from its assigned flight
> path.
> 8:52 a.m.: Two F-15 Eagles take off from Otis ANG Base in effort to
> intercept hijacked plane(s) after first plane has struck the World
> Trade Center.
> 9:02 a.m.: United Airlines flight 175 strikes the World Trade Center's
> south tower (F-15 fighter jets from Otis ANG Base are still 70 miles
> away.)
> 9:25 a.m.: FAA notifies NORAD that United flight 77 may have been
> hijacked.
> 9:27 a.m.: (approximate time) NORAD orders jets scrambled from Langley
> Air Force Base in Virginia to head to intercept United Airlines flight
> 77.
> 9:35 a.m.: Three F-16 Fighting Falcons take off from Langley AFB headed
> toward Washington area.
> 9:37 a.m.: American Airlines flight 77 is lost from radar screens.
> 9:38 a.m.: American Airlines flight 77 strikes the Pentagon.
> 9:49 a.m.: F-16 fighter jets arrive over Washington, D.C. to perform
> Combat Air Patrol (CAP) over city. (The fighters broke the sound
> barrier and traveled supersonic at 720 knots to Washington, making the
> approximately 130 miles in 14 minutes.)
> The following timeline is for United Airlines flight 93, scheduled to
> fly from Newark International Airport to San Francisco. The flight
> crashed in Pennsylvania.
> 8:42 a.m.: United Airlines flight 93 takes off from Newark
> International Airport.
> 9:16 a.m.: FAA informs NORAD that United Airlines flight 93 may have
> been hijacked.
> 9:40 a.m.: Transponder signal from United flight 93 ceases and radar
> contact is lost.
> 10:02 a.m.: After a review of radar tapes, a radar signal is detected
> near Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
> To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs
> -Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org
> OM
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs
-Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org
OMYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs
-Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org
OM
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--- End Message ---
