Am Sonntag, 18. März 2018, 18:27:22 CET schrieb Robert Bieber: > Interesting, could you link me to that old discussion, by any chance? > Or do you remember the email title? I've heard recently that Lightroom > has some really useful dual-window functionality as well that works > quite a bit differently from the detachable panels I was working on, so > I've been meaning to look into how they do it as well.
It was on IRC, logs pasted below. At least the ones I could quickly find. > -Robby <Kabouik> Is there any plan for dual-head support in Darktable? I've read the old statements on the wiki about the difficulties caused by color management among monitors, but it could still be an option offered to the user with a warning on whether he should trust colors in the second monitor or not. <Kabouik> Dual-monitor support in raw processing can still be very useful for much more than colors, including exposure, contrast, clarity, vignetting, cropping, sharpness, overall field of view and composition... <Kabouik> I find it very hard to step back from Lightroom just because of this feature, I have two monitors and can only use one in Darktable. Processing raws implies pressing Tab all the time to show the picture and evaluate previous modifications. Displaying portrait picture in full is also not very good even with tab, while I could use my 90°-rotated secondary monitor for this. Feels a bit like a waste, even with imperfect colors. <Kabouik> I'm sure I'm not the only one to have two monitors in the Darktable userbase and to see benefits in a secondary display, even with unreliable colors. <houz> i can't really envision what a dual head gui would look like. just all the sliders on one monitor and the image on the 2nd? <houz> Kabouik: ^ <houz> or do you want to see the image in a 2nd window, so you have it twice? <Kabouik> No houz, actually what most people who requested it so far would look for something very simple, like Lightroom currently provides: the second monitor would just show your current picture being edited in darkroom, almost in fullscreen, with simple tools like zoom in/out, 1:1, adapt to screen, and maybe a before/after comparison. That's all. <houz> 1) i never used lightroom. 2) when the 2nd screen shows the image with extra controls, does the 1st screen show the image, too? <Kabouik> It would allow one to edit a picture with all the sliders and plugins on one screen (and therefore a small view of the image because half the screen estate is reserved to plugins/tools), and a preview of the final result in large size in the second monitor. It gives a very noticeable use to a screen otherwise not used at all during the process. <Kabouik> Yes the 1st screen shows the image as well, let me check if I can find screenshots (currently on Linux so I can't run LR myself) <houz> when zomming/panning one image view, does the other one follow? or are they independent? <Kabouik> https://www.flickr.com/photos/vangeles/10761080605/ here's one example with one monitor in portrait (this is my case, although I do it the other way: controls on the landscape screen, preview on the portrait screen) <Kabouik> It actually proves *really* useful one you tried it, honestly even with the steep learning curve of Darktable, this is by far what holds me back the most (even though I really am trying to move to Darktable) <Kabouik> They are independent houz <Kabouik> That's one of the things that make it really useful <Kabouik> You can see changes in 1:1 in one screen and keep an eye on the whole image at the same time. Really useful even with imperfect colors matching between screens (like sharpness, details, noise...) <houz> that would require substantial changes to dt i assume <houz> or at least be quite slow <Kabouik> Would it be so slow? I never saw any performance impact with or without the dual head feature in LR <Kabouik> And my computer is not very powerful. <houz> no idea how lr works, i was just talking about dt <houz> we would have to compute everything twice <Kabouik> I have no skills in coding/dev so forgive me if I was oversimplying the thing, but isn't it just a cloned view of the current image display in Darktable? <Kabouik> Darktable currently resizes the view (or not) depending on the zoom level, but it would still be the same image with the same processing, just displayed twice in two different sizes <houz> if it showed the same in both views it were a cloned view, but if the regions shown may differ, zoom levels may differ, color profiles may differ, ... it's a completely independent rendering <houz> it might still be feasible, maybe with one of the views being updated lazily <houz> so that the small preview on the edit-screen gets real time updates, and the other one may lag a little <houz> once you move your head to the 2nd screen you are probably not dragging sliders, so dt can catch up <Kabouik> It could be just an option that the user can choose not to use if the impact is too big on performance (or if he has only one monitor of course). One way to put it could be to have [1] and [2] icons on top of the main view, [1] being enabled by default, while [2] could be a togglable secondary view in a separate (movable) window. It could serve as a before/ after comparison between [1] and [2], or just the features detailed above here. <Kabouik> Yes, giving less priority to the rendering on the second view would make sense <houz> i can see how it would be a useful feature, but even if anyone decides to write the code it'll take time <Kabouik> But my point is it really is a feature that is hard to give up once you tried it. I really don't want to support Adobe or LR, and all their choices are not necessarily perfect, but this provides real comfort that you can feel, and miss when you can't get it in DT <houz> i understand that. but code doesn't write itself. and currently we are about 2.5 devs working on dt. part time. <Kabouik> Unfortunately feedback from the devs has not shown much interest in it (even if some people suggested the feature more than 5 years ago). The main reason for it being reject/pushed back is the color management issue, but I think it's not mandatory and beenfits would still be significant without proper color matching. <Kabouik> I totally understand that houz <Kabouik> My point was to add one vote to this old feature request. My concern was that maybe none of the devs ever tried dual head in LR since they are in DT from the beginning, and maybe do not have a comprehensive view of the benefits. Just wanted to illustrate them and emphasize that they are real! :] <Kabouik> *Even with imperfect color matching among screens, the main concern described so far.* <houz> well, voting is not really a thing in darktable development. ;-) <user8393> i use a dual monitor setup to quickly evaluate images: on the left screen the lighttable view, on the right screen the single image view. if i navigate through the images on the left screen, the image on the right screen is updates. <Kabouik> I know, that's why I'm chitchatting and developping the arguments on IRC instead of just posting a +1 on some old bug/feature tracker :p <user8393> however, although both screens are calibrated, the image looks a bit different on the second. but that might be a problem of two screens on one graphics card. <houz> user8393: that's something completely different and very unlikely to be added: lighttable and darkroom at the same time <Kabouik> Yes, they are different for me as well user8393, but yet I still see that I'm like twice slower when processing raws with just one screen in use <user8393> i don't speak of the darkroom on the second screen. it's just a larger image view. <houz> ah, ok <Kabouik> Yeah user8393 is just talking about lighttable on the left with thumbnails, and "larger thumbnail" (to the point that only one is shown) on the right <Kabouik> That's another use of dual-head: can be useful in both lighttable and darkroom <user8393> yes, i agree. having one view for the overall image view and a second for details. <houz> once we have a 2nd "preview/detail" window we can use it in lighttable and darkroom i suppose <houz> lighttable would be even easier i guess as we don't need to do expensive computations there <Kabouik> To be honest I think I really am twice slower without dual head, and it's harder to focus because you change views and zoom levels all the time <houz> dunno, i never missed it <houz> i'll think about it <Kabouik> See it as a good bandwith connection: you don't miss it and think you're above that... Until you try it. :p <Kabouik> Anyway thank a lot for taking the time to discuss it here houz, it's greatly appreciated! <houz> sure :) <houz> i am always happy when i can add more things to the ever growing todo list ^^ <Kabouik> I am sure you are! <Kabouik> For reference, here is an old feature request on Redmine: https:// redmine.darktable.org/issues/8762 and on the wiki: https:// redmine.darktable.org/projects/darktable/wiki/DualHead <Kabouik> But logs of the above discussion could be added there to bring grist to the mill and on the importance of the color issue. <Kabouik> By the way I'm amazed that there are only 2.5 people currently working on an ambitious (and good) project like Darktable. It's kind of encouraging when you see what is being done by just few people on part time, but depressing that there are not more contributors on such a think that rivals big fish like Adobe. I'm sorry I have no skills to help, but thank you guys for your work and commitment. <user8393> houz, kabouik: here are a video and an article explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKsxtUUb39I&feature=youtu.be, http:// www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1881387&seqNum=4 <Kabouik> thing* <houz> maybe it's 3 or 4, it changes over time <houz> user8393: i don't really want to know what lr does so i am not going to watch those. <houz> copying lr is not on my task list <Kabouik> Can't check the video now user8393, I will later. In my opinion the best is to have a landscape and a portrait screen, so you can preview all your photos using all the screen estate, but not all people like portrait monitors. <user8393> houz: it was meant as input to understand what we mean, not to clone lr.
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