Am Donnerstag, 27. November 2014, 11:53:18 schrieb Matthias Urlichs: > Hi,
Hi Matthias, > Martin Steigerwald: > > > Desktops (not only GNOME) use a very tiny bit of systemd, interfaces > > > that could be provided elsewhere. The real purpose of systemd is to > > > provide a modern init system. > > > > I still wonder why there are provided within systemd then. > > Yes, the logind-related parte _could_ be provided elsewhere, but part of > the features logind needs is already implemented in systemd. So using that > instead of rolling your own from scratch is simply common sense. > > A second implementation also would require coordination between systemd and > whatever, therefore requiring yet more code. More man-hours to write and > debug. But I think for most of the people that dislike systemd this is the main concern: systemd is a lot of system building blocks in *one* repository and *one* debian package and while they may be separatable they are not separated. But well, its an upstream topic and I actually tried to bring this upstream, but didn´t seem to be able to bring my point across without getting touchy responses and even personal attacks from the very same people that complained about being personally attacked themselves including, but not limited to Lennart himself, while I at least *tried* to stay away from personal attacks. But while I do not agree with personal attacks I think as long as upstream handles things they way the do they will continue to get the responses they get. But if you just limit your discussion to technical convenience there is no ground to discuss these things and actually get to an agreement. I learned that before I unsubscribed myself from systemd-devel again to *protect myself*. So while I do not see it as black or white, systemd has its advantages, I would need to put both hands before my eyes not to see that, the way upstream and some avid supports of it in Debian deal with the concerns it raises does not seem to be well suited for actually *addressing* those concerns. And this will remain the case as long as technical convenience is the only discussable item here. As long as its all in one big package cause, as according to the responses I got on systemd-devel, it is technically *convenient* and *easier* to develop. That does no good to address these concerns I think. Cause: Technical *convenient* is not necessarely technical *best*. Splitting things may be work… but developers still do it and I think *for good reasons*. Cause, I think part of the issues are *social* issues with the *way* upstream handles concerns and user feedback. Acting in a certain way triggers certain results and I think it is very important that at some point upstream developers and avid systemd supporters within Debian project ask themselves the question: Why do I get *that much* resistance? What, *at the core of it* is the reason behind that resistance? And no… its not all people resisting for the sake of resisting in my oppinion. Of course, also those resisting systemd can benefit from asking themselves: Why do I actually resist systemd? What real issues does it actually cause me? What is the real issue I actually have? And how can I address it? That said, systemd has been discussed to an extent that I never saw *anything* in Debian discussed ever before… so I myself decided to wait a bit what comes out of it. Despite my concerns, so far systemd runs stable on mail laptop, the workstation at work and music laptop and reliably. It still find strange behavior from time to time that I report, like just yesterday changing MAC addresses on eth0 on every disconnect, but this may also be Network Manager doing this (also reported already). But so or so: if systemd fails on technical terms I am pretty sure, Debian developers can adapt and replace the default init system again if need be. So while I have my own share of technical concerns I am more concerned with the social and emotional responses systemd adoption in Debian triggers. As there I see the real danger for the project. And yes, I am concerned about it. Big time. I am still confident that Debian as a community will get through it, but as far as I have seen so far it has been a very rough ride. But for addressing it, for healing what obviously seems to be hurt it is actually absolutely necessary that everyone starts with oneself, cause just attacking each other with accusation will just cause more attacks, more accusation, more frustration, more people leaving. I for myself will no be very strict regarding any technical things I see. I am determined to report any bug with systemd I find. It is under high scrutiny on my systems. For me it still has to prove itself. I don´t take its reliability, stability and well behaving for granted. But that is it… … not much point to discuss here further… without addressing whats really behind the concerns of those who resist systemd and the frustrations of those in Debian who want to have systemd and yet get so much resistance. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3099252.XBqT66OYyE@merkaba
