Sam Hartman - 01.01.20, 15:59:31 CET: > >>>>> "Martin" == Martin Steigerwald <mar...@lichtvoll.de> writes: > Martin> Dear Sam. > > Martin> Sam Hartman - 31.12.19, 15:37:09 CET: > >> folks, emotions are very high at the moment. It would really > >> help if > >> you could let the discussion die down. If there are issues > >> that you > >> need to address, please reach out to da-manager, the > >> listmaster, DPL, > >> the community team, or anyone else who you think will hear you > >> and > >> give you the help you're looking for. > > Martin> […] > > >> We want to hear people even when they are very upset. > >> Similarly, we > >> don't want people to be provoked into being so upset that they > >> cannot > >> be heard. > > Martin> How does that go together, Sam? > > I think there is a time and a place for everything. > Sometimes, when people are really upset, it is hard for them to > constructively hear something. > Sometimes when they are upset it is hard to connect with empathy and > in your terms mutuality. > And so taking some space in time can gain the distance we're going to > need to hear each other later.
Okay, I can go with that. > And yet, even at those times, some issues need to be dealt with > urgently. > > If you feel there is something not right going on and you need help > with it, I'm trying to give some options that allow you to reach out > without escalating emotions here on the list. My point is here is that the GR started in the public, has been discussed in the public, has been a public election, yet I felt you suggested that what happened after the voting conduction should be moved to private space. This did not feel right to me. > Martin> How is going to say "I feel hurt about the outcome of the > GR" – Martin> personally I am not even sure whether I do – or "I > think the GR did not Martin> serve the highest good of Debian" or > something like that which is Martin> *respectful* and within the > bounds of Code of Conduct, suddenly not Martin> acceptable anymore? > > > I'd like to be heard differently. > My focus was not intended to be on the GR so much as the thread about > diversity and the CoC and things that happened on that thread. Ah, I see. I did not get that. Your post did not state what it relates to. I read quite some of that discussion, however I felt scared to write even a single mail on those topics. I felt that it would be way too easy to be writing something that would hurt someone or would be misunderstood – even tough it may just be due to a lack of understanding. Especially as I had only rare contacts with transgender people, or people with a sexual identity as just male or female. On the other hand I feel I am not "just" male as well, so… and I read more than once and felt more than once that sexual identity can be fluid. I certainly agree with using the pronoun someone likes to be addressed with. Related to diversity and CoC discussions I have no opinion about your suggestion. I dropped reading them as I found it hard to endure, cause from what I saw they contained a lot of accusations. I consider myself to be incarnated into a highly sensitive person, so I think I better am careful. You may very well have had a point to make here. I agree that on heated discussions especially when language being used becomes violent, stepping back and welcoming the emotions on my own can be very helpful before I engage again. > However, as I understand it, the GR is important to you, and now that > we have the misunderstanding of focus out of the way, I'd be happy to > chat about the GR. > > For the GR, I think now is a time of emotions. We agree there then. > I would request that you not focus on discussing whether the GR was a > good idea or will benefit Debian at this time. I think that people > have strong feelings, and those feelings will get in the way of any > analysis of those issues. I am okay with leaving the discussion whether the GR was a good idea or will benefit as it. I shared my doubts but I will be very happily be proven otherwise. I am just very sad, that a very notable contributor to sysvinit already decided to leave Debian as a result of the GR. I sought to express that. > I request that you consider whether the community would benefit from > connection and understanding of these feelings more than cost-benefit > discussions at this time. > > I think those discussions will be more successful later. > > If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that you are upset when > you think about some of those discussions not happening. You need > open communication and are afraid/otherwise upset when you think > about views being silenced. > Is that a good summary of what I'm hearing? Yes. This was not only related to your post but to other posts as well. I saw a tendency to what I perceived as attempts to "silence" opinions or discussions. > I'd like to reassure you that I'm not trying to suggest that GR > discussions are unacceptable. As I've said above, I do have hopes for > what sort of discussions we'll focus on now. But yes, respectful > discussions of the GR are certainly acceptable. Thank you. Have a wonderful new year. -- Martin