> Am 2008-06-21 09:22:17, schrieb Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso:
>> I think this is rather nearsighted. Although for what I do,
>> mathematics, it's easier to argue for openness of the software (a
>> mathematical proof must be available and the method disclosed,
>
> Sorry, but I habv my own Enterprise, working alone, outsourceing already
> Jobs to India, Russia and Pakistan, have 4 childeren in a Internat which
> cost over 3000 ¤/month and I must live...
>
> I can not wait 5 or 10 years for software development.
>
> I need the software NOW and currenly I have only 1000 ¤ in my pocket.
> Maybe I can get a credit from my bank but...
>
>> otherwise, what kind of mathematics are we doing?), I also think it
>> should be important to argue for the opennes of engineering software.
>> If you buy it, I think you should also be demanding the source code.
>
> For what?
> What do you want with a sourcecode of the size of OpenOffice or bigger?
> Do you have already decompressed the full sources of OpenOffice.org?
>
> The question is WHY do you want the source code?
>
> I do not know much peoples WHICH can do anything with it except stealing
> ideas or such...
>
> VariCAD for example... Tell me a singel BIG FOSS of this quality and
> service? (including international standards like ISO, DIN or such)
>
> This IS the reason, WHY I have bought VariCAD for 20.000 ¤ (OK not realy
> because I have bought in for a special price on the CeBit) but where is
> the FOSS which can create singel objects and then resamle it to a big
> thing?
>
> E.g.: I build electonic Hardware for Solar- and Wind-Energie and then
> I constuct a haus where I use it, and since I am working on a
> project called "Eco City" I have not only one haus but many.
> Then I have my BioFuel-Refinery which was designed under VariCAD
> and is included in the design of EcoCity... Streets are inductiv
> and cars are driving electric and are charged inductiv...
>
> Now tell me where I can get such FOSS...
>
> Oh, VariCAD allow me Real-Time simmulations where I can let drive cars
> through the streets and more...
>
> HOW do you want to provide such service with FOSS? And why do you want
> the sourcecode for such softwre? The Enterprise, coding and maintaining
> such software invest very much money and i am talking about several 100
> million Euros in development...
>
> Do you know a FOSS, which can simulate the behaviour of a haus, tower or
> a bridge in a Earth-Quake? I have the software! - ...and payed for it.
>
>> Unfortunately, it seems that many people in engineering backgrounds,
>> with whom I frequently have to interact, are used to the idea of
>> paying thousands of dollars for black boxes, whether it be for
>> hardware and instrumentation or software. I think this is a recent
>
> They do not pay for nothing... They pay for Service and Performance
>
>> This modern tendency to eschew source seems nearsighted because I have
>> seen this come back to haunt engineers. More than once, I've seen
>> their black boxes malfunction on them, the only people with the
>> ability to fix them have left the company or are out of business, and
>
> But such things do not happen to programs like VariCAD or professionel
> PCB layouting which cost several 10.000 ¤.
>
>> then they come to us with interesting mathematics of inverse problems
>> ("I have the output of this black box, how can we figure out what's
>> inside?"). I feel so frustrated with this, because if only they had
>> requested for source and documentation when they bought it, something
>> that apparently never even crossed their minds, then their newfound
>> problems would be trivial.
>
> And then?
>
> They have the Sourcecode change the name and sell it in there name? I
> think, OSS or CSS, depends on the "Type of Software" and the Service
> behind.
>
>> This is my strongest argument for openness with engineering software,
>> from a personal perspective. Duplication of efforts, with many
>> companies implementing the same or similar software in their own
>> secret ways (NIH syndrome) is another silly thing that happens behind
>> copyright laws and non-disclosure agreements and something that
>> software freedom can reduce or eliminate.
>
> WHY do you think it is silly? Developing such software cost money in
> recherches and services... Why do you want it for free? I call such
> peoples suckers...
>
>> I do not know much about PCB software or to what extent these
>> arguments apply to your own situation, but my guess is that they also
>> do and that having source and the freedoms that come with it would
>> also be hugely beneficial and a good long-term strategy.
>
> But again, WHAT DO YOU WANT with a sourcecode where the developers have
> invested millions of ¤?
>
> Note: I have ask MANY peoples about WHY THEY WANT THE SOURCE CODE and
> there was not a singel one, which has respond suitable...
>
> The argument "I want to improve the software" does not count,
> since no one could tell me what to improve on VariCAD.
>
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> 24V Electronic Engineer
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
>
>
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
Michelle
I have run several hardware/software shops and for me the only rational
arguement for source code is "what will I as a user do if the company goes
"belly up" or stops supporting the product. The only pragmatic solution
that I was able to work out was an escrow arrangement whereby the
developer placed the most current version of source code and documentation
with a third party (e.g. a bank). The developer owned that source code
and I was not allowed to access it unless the developer either stopped
doing business, stopped supporting the software, or failed to meet stated
obligations (e.g. failed to fix a major bug in some reasonable time). I
have negotiated several of these agreements and not once have I had to
exercise the escrow agreement and gain access to the software; however,
the existance of such an agreement gave my company peace of mind.
Larry
>
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