On Sunday 12 October 2008, Daniel Burrows wrote: > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 01:56:57PM -0400, Hal Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say: > > On Sunday 12 October 2008, Daniel Burrows wrote: > > > Regardless, I don't see his mail as being at all impolite; just > > > a little terse. > > > > I'll ask you to read in this context: 1) You know very little about > > how packages in Debian are maintained, 2) You know nothing about > > the internals of apt, 3) You do not know Christian at all, have no > > idea what he is like, and do not know what to expect, and 4) You > > have just found what has every appearance of a severe bug: > > Upgrading some files can keep a system from booting. While your > > problem is resolved, you're trying to help the distro you prefer > > keep that from happening to anyone else. > > I agree that this sort of bug report reply is annoying. I'm just > saying that so far in this thread I've seen Christian accused of > various forms of trying to make users feel like idiots, being someone > who "shouldn't be handling bug reports", a developer who is "full or > air", someone who has "no sense of social ettiquite", etc, etc, etc. > [0] This is not true. I don't know what was in his mind when he > wrote the bug report to which you referred (obviously), but I don't > think he was trying to blow you off. I don't think there's any point > in further retreads of this ancient bug, we're just going in circles. > > [0] his name may not have been used, but his reply to this bug > report was being held up as an example of this type of individual. > > > > It's hard, when replying to a bug, to figure out the level of > > > detail to include. He included enough information for someone to > > > figure out what was going on if they were familiar with the > > > Debian system. > > > > With what degree of familiarity? I couldn't figure it out. Now > > you can go on and call me an idiot, but I test well into the genius > > range, have depended on only my income from my business based on my > > own programming for 7 years, and have basically taught myself all > > the programing languages I now use (I'm not counting BASIC, > > FORTRAN, and VAX 11/780 Assember that I learned in college, since I > > no longer use any of those languages). While I fixed my system, I > > was left with no idea of what was actually going on and wasn't sure > > what to do if I wanted to make sure someone could prevent this kind > > of thing from happening again. > > I didn't say he was right! My point is that this is a judgment > call that sometimes gets made incorrectly. You cannot realistically > expect us to never make mistakes. > > > > I can see the point that more information would have been > > > helpful, but this is an easy mistake to make and I'd hardly call > > > it an insult. > > > > Who said it was an insult? > > "I don't know if he's just trying to dazzle me with bs or to make me > feel like an idiot because he knows so much and I know nothing." > > I took that to mean that you thought he was insulting you. > Apologies if I misunderstood. > > > Maybe it's from the jobs I had along the way, but I cannot imagine > > being part of an organization and someone coming to me for help and > > saying, "It's not my problem," without doing my best to give them > > SOME clue on where to go next. > > Like I said, I don't think there's any more point in discussing the > history here. When I handle misdirected bugs, I usually reassign > them to an appropriate package. I don't know why Christian didn't; > obviously it was a mistake on his part. > > > Rude is a subjective term. Being terse isn't always being rude and > > one person's rude is another person's terse. However, as you point > > out, there are times when a developer is tired or out of sorts. > > That's not a particularly good time to respond to "the public" (or > > whatever term you want to use. True, you don't have employees, but > > was there a deadline hanging over his head so he *had* to respond > > at that time? > > Personally, I try not to reply to bug reports when I'm not in the > right state of mind. However, I've also found that there's a strong > correlation between lacking the judgment to reply to bug reports and > lacking the judgment to decide whether I have sufficient judgment to > reply to bug reports. :-/ > > > > I can see why you might feel it was frustrating. Particularly > > > if you automatically assume that the guy on the other end is a > > > malicious, arrogant jerk rather than someone who's overworked and > > > trying to deal with a bug that's clearly misdirected. > > > > Where did anyone automatically make that assumption? I don't see > > where anyone said there was such an assumption or why there's a > > need to bring it up. > > This is the general impression I got from reading your emails in > this thread, the same way you got a general impression that Debian > developers are hostile and uncooperative. e.g., and I bring this up > only so you know what I'm talking about, take this comment: > > "I'll go even farther: In most cases they've been outright hostile > and I've had times where they've "told me off" to justify closing the > bug. > > I'm a geek to the core, but the stereotype of programmers or geeks > that have no social skills seems to come from something and my > experience, over the past 10 years or so of working with FOSS, tells > me that filing bug reports is just a good way to invite personal > abuse." > > The "they" refers to FOSS developers, not Debian developers, but > Debian developers are the specific FOSS developers whose behavior > was being discussed in this thread. > > Anyway, I accept your statement that I misunderstood you. > > > > Please remember that we are volunteers. I spend between 5 and > > > 20 hours, tops, on my Debian work, depending on how much I can > > > squeeze in around my other activities in my free time. I have > > > spent one hour of it this week writing this reply to you. If I > > > answered every user question in enough detail for the most naive > > > user I can imagine to understand what I meant from my first > > > reply, I would never have time to do anything else. > > > > But you also have to remember that you never know much about each > > user. Today's naive user could be a developer in a few years. Or > > they could be someone with a large bank account that might be > > donating soon. In the very least, as you point out, developers are > > only human, but so are those filing the bug reports. > > I don't make a habit of deliberately abusing users and I try to be > helpful. But whether I want to or not, I simply *don't* *have* > *time* to educate every user about every aspect of the Debian system. > All I have time to do is provide the information that I think is > relevant to their problem and hope that they'll ask for more details > if they need them. This doesn't work if they disappear because they > think I'm holding back information for some perverse reason. > > > You said later that I said "it's not our fault and here's why". If > that's the case, I failed in communicating my point. Of course it's > my fault when I screw up. And of course you can find a few people > who have had negative interactions with developers, because we all > screw up sometimes. (and there are probably a few developers who > really are unpleasant to deal with) I'm not disputing whose fault it > is, I'm saying that unless [0] we create a support department and > have people whose full-time, paid job is to be nice and helpful to > users, developers will occasionally make these sorts of mistakes. I > don't think it's fair to take a few examples of less-than-stellar > emails from developers and hold them up as grounds for condemning the > individuals involved, let alone the entire project. The > practicalities of the situation mean that we all need to be a little > forgiving here for things to work. > > That may not have been your intent, but I hope that this time I at > least made myself clear. :-)
Okay. Point made. I should be clear I'm talking about ONE reply in the example and that it could have been written at 3 am after a bad day. I'm leaving out what I used to have to do all the time when teaching in residential: Make it clear I'm talking about a particular behavior and that it may or may not be at all typical of the person involved. I've gotten out of the habit (after leaving teaching) of making sure I focused on the behavior. That also touches on the reason that I do NOT want to bring up something like that when it involves a person who is not a member of the forum where the discussion is happening. I was not the one who brought it up as an example. My original point is that I don't file bug reports with FOSS because I've had some indifferent and even hostile replies. As I've said, there are reasons that I usually file bug reports under a legal alias and why I used to be on mailing lists using the same aka. It's a long story, but it's not that I'm up to anything shady. Overall, I used to file bug reports, back when I first started working with FOSS, sometime in the late 1990s, but gave up on it for the reasons I mentioned. That this particular one is dated 2006 tells me it's one I filed when I had already given up, for the most part, on filing them. > [0] and even if we had a paid support department, that would only > reduce the problem, not eliminate it. > > > One other point: You mention you spent an hour on this reply. What > > was the intent? I made a point: The responses of some DDs > > encourage people to stop filing bug reports. That's the point > > under discussion with one report as an example. Some people said > > it's not at all true, but others have said that in their experience > > it is true. That others, not many, but some, have had the same > > problem and don't bother with bug reports anymore, is a clear > > indication that there is something to what I'm saying. > > The intent was mainly to defend Christian from the unwarranted > attacks on his character that I thought (perhaps wrongly) were flying > around this list. A secondary goal was to suggest that assumptions > of good faith are essential to keep our social interactions > well-lubricated. Clearly I have failed miserably at both. I hope > that this email is a little clearer. And I should have been clear the focus was on ONE reply, not on Christian. Honestly, I started my business when I couldn't even afford to buy the tech books I needed for it. I had to go to relatives, like a kid with his eyes downcast, asking for money for reference books. I could not have started my business without FOSS. I could have switched over to proprietary systems several years ago if I had wanted to, but decided I'd rather spend the money on a convertible than the thousands it would have taken to replace all my FOSS software with stuff for Windows. I know what it's like to work day and night, squashing bugs and trying to get something ready and working. I have the utmost respect for what FOSS developers do and what they have created, including the Debian distro, which, unlike some, is not and never has been, sold for a profit. So, while I stopped filing bug reports, that does not mean I don't admire FOSS developers and what they've done. It's like a friend of mine who is a great guy but if we start playing Monopoly, he gets nasty and competes in just the worst way. While I think a lot of him, I've just learned NOT to interact with him when a Monopoly board is nearby. For the same reason, due to my experience, I don't file bug reports. One of the reasons I get so ticked on this issue is because I know it's a point that, if people focused on it, would help everyone in the FOSS world. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]