On Mon, 7 May 2018 01:25:15 +0000 (UTC) David Griffith <d...@661.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 6 May 2018, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > > On Sun, 6 May 2018 02:44:16 +0000 (UTC) David Griffith > > <d...@661.org> wrote: > > > >> Have any advances been made in figuring out just how to remove > >> libsystemd0 from a Debian 9 machine that's running sysvinit? The > >> ongoing presence of libsystemd0 has caused slowly-progressing > >> trouble with several machines of mine culminating in complete > >> failure a couple days ago. Initially I thought this was unrelated > >> to systemd, but now I tracked it down to systemd's remnants and > >> the problem is progressing much faster with freshly-installed > >> machines. > > > > First, how exactly did you convert to sysvinit, etc? And what kind > > of trouble? > > > > I've been running Stretch with sysvinit for almost a year -- as > > a personal machine, not a server -- and have had absolutely NO > > problems. Here's the link I used: > > > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_Stretch_installation > > > > I used the very first conversion steps, the simplest one, and none > > of the optional ones. No pinning. No third-party systemdless > > repos, etc. I still have systemd libraries including libsystemd0 > > for those apps that have systemd as a dependenciy. No problems. > > Totally removing systemd is a pain requiring third-party > > systemdless repos and keeping a wary eye out for problems. I did it > > a couple times as part of my experiments, and always had glitches. > > > > One thing did just occur to me: Are you using the GNOME desktop? > > I've heard stories about it and systemd. It is VERY dependent on > > it. I haven't used GNOME whatever version for about 7 years. I use > > only a window manager Openbox. > > I followed that same thing you did as soon as the machine was > installed. I also did optional steps 2 and 3. I didn't do 1 because > all the machines in question are headless. I stopped using GNOME > when version 3 came out and switched to MATE for most of my desktop > needs. I started with a basic terminal-only netinstall system. No X. No GUI, etc. Once I had that initial system running, I converted it to sysvinit, rebooted, and then added the rest leaving the systemd libraries installed treating them like any other dependency. I left the system to boot to a terminal where I log in and run startx, if I need the GUI. So, no login manager or session manager. I decided after numerous experiments with and without systemd installed, and with and without third-party "no systemd" repos that overall leaving the systemd libraries installed did nothing except take up space, and they were there if some app needed them. I tried never to install anything that had systemd or any part of it as a direct dependency. So far, I've had no systemd issues. > One of the symptoms that made me think libsystemd0 had something to > do with it was the output of "apt-get upgrade". It would always > report "1 not upgraded" or "2 not upgraded". I experienced issues with trying to totally remove systemd. That's one reason I went with the just leaving systemd installed philosophy. Plus, I was wary of the third-party "no systemd" repos. Would the owner keep them up-to-date, etc.? I wanted a stable, unbreakable system. That "not upgraded" thing is the default to prevent, for stability's sake, major number upgrades of installed files. Just do an "apt-get dist-upgrade" to override. So, you installed 3.2.0.24 of something. A standard upgrade will only install 3.2.X.XX. A dist-upgrade will install 3.4.X.XX for example, but will not install 4.X.X.XX. > The trouble manifested in dependency hell and networking that would > mysteriously stop for no readily apparent reason (on reboot after > kernel upgrade or out of the blue). Usually networking could be > regained by doing a LISH login and manually turning on the network > interfaces. Then interface names started changing randomly. This > was after names like "eth0" and friends were abandoned. Servers died > by way of networking only working halfway, no matter what I did. I > was able to ssh in and do scp and rsync transfers, but that was about > it. Can't help here. Probably, removing some systemd library that some utility needs is the culprit. I've discovered that sometimes something that doesn't have a direct systemd dependency may depend on something that does. That's why among other reasons I abandoned the "no systemd" approach. > What's the point of allowing libsystemd0 to exist when systemd has > been purged? That was answered by others. > Is anyone working on a mechanism to allow for install-time selection > of a desired init? I brought this up a few times since systemd came > to Debian, but I've never heard anything more on this. I asked that question when Jessie debuted. No one is. Certainly not Debian. The only suggestion I got was to build my own preseeded install disk, but that's not the answer -- You still have to install systemd first and convert. B