On 12/02/2013 02:24 AM, Urmas wrote: > "tk": > >> By including fonts in the installation base, users can be guaranteed >> that second and third parties can read/write/edit/view the document. > > All concerned parties /already have all the fonts installed via their > OS/. There's no need to include useless fonts in the default > installation. > >
As for /always/ having the needed fonts, not always, sadly. (Though I wish it were!) *Problem Case in Point* At my work, I have seen all kinds of documents come on to a user's desk with a myriad of fonts that they don't have and/or don't know how to or have the rights to install. Off the top of my head, I remember one old Windows XP machine not having the Lao fonts needed to read an important government report, and the user was not experienced with installing such software. This was a problem. Not a big issue to fix, but imagine if I weren't there, and there were no technical experts to consult - makes a big difference. They probably would have gone to a local shop, but there are issues with that... *LibreOffice's Target Users - What should they know how to do? * So, should LibreOffice users be expected to have the knowledge to install fonts by themselves? (I am not asking as a way of stating that LibreOffice should include loads of fonts that aren't needed as that is out of the scope of LibreOffice's purpose, as I understand it.) *Demographics* Until the day the world agrees on a unified language like Mandarin, we will have this issue to deal with. Multi-lingual products have to deal with the nature of having more than one language, and native English speakers only are about 5% of the possible target users. Only about 20% have any level of English fluency (from poor to high), even though they may prefer their own native language (so that's approximately 75% of people those who use English who might prefer using their own language). Thai, Khmer, and Lao constitute about 55 million people alone. *Prevalent Piracy* Currently those 55 million people who will probably just purchase local shop MS Office and accompanying add-on software. It's their best, easiest, and possibly only known option for their language consistent with their skills and knowledge. From what I see in Southeast Asia, that software is likely to be pirated (with the person pirating it clueless that what they are doing is a problem). People rely heavily on the local IT experts in their villages or neighborhoods to provide them the support they need. Those local IT people have limited access to training and may or may not know any English. They have to have work, so they use their skills to open up a shop. But if software is not pirated, it's usually cost prohibitive. Maybe some of those people will be IT / tech-savvy enough to do better (like download free fonts), but that's not realistic with what I see every time I go to a Lao / Thai computer shop. I would suspect Khmer and Burmese to have the same problem, though I've not been to Cambodia or Myanmar yet. However, I can ask others in the area to confirm. Burmese would add another 32 million to the 55 million mentioned before, once word break support is included in ICU and LibreOffice. I have a friend working diligently on the Burmese project. Piracy laws get tighter every day. Just look at the last link on the bottom of my response for proof. America and other nations want to appease their lobbyist and technology giants. Once piracy is center stage to international trade, /LibreOffice could use that to help increase adoption as well as community involvement/. 3 or so font files could potentially enable LibreOffice adoption among 87 million people. *Making LibreOffice Bloated with Loads of Fonts Irrelevant to the User* But, Urmas, your point about not having too much stuff bundled that might not be useful to you (250 extra fonts in the font dropdown, or not even using the extra fonts on Windows), is one of importance. It would be nice, imho, if there were a way to enable one font per language pack that provides basic, decent font coverage. And nothing more. I personally don't think LibreOffice should be providing a load of other styles or other fonts, which may be better for the user to figure out for themselves (maybe the wiki could include links to other fonts that they can use, but only choose one or so to actually bundle). That way the English version of LibreOffice only gets what is needed / essential - and no more. No bloat, no extra unwanted fonts - just LibreOffice and a basic set of essential cross-platform fonts to get the job done. *The Idea (Compilation of Several Ideas from Others with My Own Spin)* For an example, let's say for the Russian pack of LibreOffice, someone who has experience in the field can find a Russian font that meets the needs of the users of that language and provides the quality that LibreOffice expects. The font would be reviewed and decided upon by the team. If the font is good, meets the licensing requirements, has or would have a wide adoption, is standards compliant, and meets the needs of a basic user, it can be provided in the language pack. Obviously, a Russian would be the best person to suggest the idea and/or judge what it looks like. But, in cases where LibreOffice can't find such a person, then there could be developed a rating or survey on the website, to obtain user feedback on the font. If the font is no good, responses should come in (especially if you provide adequate places for the user to know where they can provide feedback - like the Help menu). Then, the LibreOffice team can direct some of that feedback into avenues where users can: file bugs, modify the font, suggest better fonts, etc. I can, with some time, collect data on the regionally used fonts and FOSS alternatives/equivalents here for Thai, Lao, Khmer, and Burmese so that only a limited number of good, high quality fonts are to be considered in the interim if the team wants to go that direction. My though is that bad fonts could make LibreOffice look bad/undeveloped/bloated. I think LibreOffice aims to have a positive reputation among its users, and this could help. Of course, these ideas and suggestions are not mine alone, but a collection of things I've heard. I am fairly new to contributing to LibreOffice (and any other software for hat matter), so am not sure what needs to happen in order to move forward (whichever way 'forward' may be in the team's opinion). /*How does the team decide on this matter?*/ More thoughts, comments, and ideas are welcome. /Here are some references for the stats used and government possible future crackdown on piracy/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers#Ethnologue_.282013.2C_17th_edition.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22261877 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
