One thing to keep in mind is that we should keep the mailing list in mind. Not sure how we integrate two streams of notifications. But, leveraging the mailing list will make sure that the community at large can follow and participate.
Ed Coleman -----Original Message----- From: Christopher <ctubb...@apache.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2023 2:16 PM To: accumulo-dev <dev@accumulo.apache.org> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Enable Github wiki in asf.yaml? It seems like there's a majority consensus of those engaged. No need for a vote, but I think the question about notifications should be addressed first. On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 13:47 Christopher Shannon < christopher.l.shan...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm +1 to using some kind of wiki so if we can't use Confluence then > GH sounds fine to me. Do we need to take a formal vote for using the > Github wiki or is there enough consensus already? > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 1:43 PM Daniel Roberts <ddani...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > +1 for the GH wiki with major discussions still being fed into, or > > originated on the mailing lists. > > > > As a side question, if there is a lengthy discussion on a GH issue, > > is it standard practice to just recap that in a mailing list message? > > Or is there a more "formal" inclusion process to follow? > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 1:39 PM Christopher <ctubb...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > I don't think the workflow I proposed about using PRs and > > > discussion on tickets, etc. and the accompanying arguments about > > > keeping things consolidated and accessible to potential > > > contributors not participating > > on > > > GitHub, were really challenged at all. However, since I seem to be > > > the > > only > > > one advocating for using the website, to keep things centralized, > > > as > per > > > previous attempts to consolidate documentation, I won't fight the > > > use > of > > > GitHub wiki. But I do want to make it clear that we're proceeding > > > in > that > > > direction under my objection (-0), and that I'm not convinced this > > > is > the > > > best path forward. Hopefully, I will be proven wrong in time. > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 11:58 Dave Marion <dmario...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > At this point, I think we should move forward with a GH wiki > > > > > and > then > > > we > > > > can re-evaluate things once the Apache confluence issue is > > > > sorted > out. > > > > > > > > Agreed. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:57 AM dev1 <d...@etcoleman.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I just tried (Wed, 3/15) and still received the same error. I > asked > > on > > > > > the infra slack channel and they replied that they are still > working > > to > > > > > determine what the issue is - signs are pointing to something > inside > > of > > > > > confluence, but no progress. > > > > > > > > > > At this point, I think we should move forward with a GH wiki > > > > > and > then > > > we > > > > > can re-evaluate things once the Apache confluence issue is > > > > > sorted > > out. > > > > > > > > > > Ed Coleman > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Dave Marion <dmario...@gmail.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:09 AM > > > > > To: dev@accumulo.apache.org > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Enable Github wiki in asf.yaml? > > > > > > > > > > Looking at the Infra slack channel response, one of the > > > > > responses > in > > > the > > > > > channel said that "it's some sort of db corruption according > > > > > to > > > > Atlassian". > > > > > Doesn't sound good.... > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 10:55 AM Dave Marion > > > > > <dmario...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-24291 is still > > > unresolved > > > > > > and the only comment on the ticket is one that Ed added two > > > > > > days > > ago > > > > > > requesting an ACCUMULO wiki space. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 12:26 PM dev1 <d...@etcoleman.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> I do not see any comments in the infa slack channel - so no > > updates > > > > > >> for now. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> From: Dave Marion <dmario...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> Sent: Friday, March 3, 2023 12:06 PM > > > > > >> To: dev@accumulo.apache.org > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Enable Github wiki in asf.yaml? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Right, I was just curious if there was any follow-up as I > > > > > >> think > Ed > > > > > >> said that it was going to be discussed by the INFRA team > > yesterday. > > > > > >> There is at least one other recent ticket ( > > > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-24216) where > > selfserve > > > > > >> had an issue and the INFRA team created the space manually. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 11:57 AM Christopher < > ctubb...@apache.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > You can track that issue at > > > > > >> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-24291 > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 10:31 AM Dave Marion < > > dmario...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Ed, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Any update from INFRA on being able to create > > > > > >> > > confluence > > > pages? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 4:07 PM Christopher < > > ctubb...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > We've definitely used the website for more than that. > > > > > >> > > > We > use > > > it > > > > > >> > > > to document things for users, help developers know > > > > > >> > > > how to contribute, store drafts of designs, share > > > > > >> > > > user stories > via > > > > > >> > > > blogs, do release announcements, and more. There's > > definitely > > > > > >> > > > space on the website to do this kind of thing, if we > > > > > >> > > > want > > to. > > > > > >> > > > We've used it that way before. If you only see it as > > > > > >> > > > a > place > > > > > >> > > > "for user consumption after everything has been > finalized", > > > > > >> > > > then you're missing out on the other ways we > > > > > >> > > > currently use > > the > > > > > >> > > > site, and the ways we've used it in > > > > > >> the past. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > With the website, most of the collaboration would > > > > > >> > > > happen > in > > > the > > > > > >> > > > GH issues about proposed designs or changes to > > > > > >> > > > designs, > just > > > > > >> > > > like we do today with code or other documentation, > > > > > >> > > > which everybody is used to. I agree it's not as good > > > > > >> > > > as Google > > Docs > > > > > >> > > > for on-the-fly comments/annotations, but I don't > > > > > >> > > > think Confluence or Wiki are as good as that either, > > > > > >> > > > and Google > > Docs > > > > > isn't really an option... > > > > > >> > > > unless you just want to link to it in the mailing > > > > > >> > > > list and stick to Google Docs from your personal > > > > > >> > > > Google account, > > until > > > > > >> > > > it's ready for publication, which would also be fine > > > > > >> > > > (any interested persons can simply request write > > > > > >> > > > access by > > replying > > > > > >> > > > to the message where > > > > > >> you shared the link).. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > We are a much smaller project than many others, and > > > > > >> > > > we > have > > > > > >> > > > previously suffered from having stuff too spread out. > > > > > >> > > > Even > > if > > > > > >> > > > other projects find a separate space valuable for > > > > > >> > > > them, > I'm > > > not > > > > > >> > > > sure it's best for the Accumulo project. While I > > > > > >> > > > think > it's > > > > > >> > > > useful to examine what other projects do, I do think > > > > > >> > > > we > > should > > > > > >> > > > be careful to adopt anything just because others find > > > > > >> > > > it > > > > > convenient for them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Confluence is my second choice, but with a big gap > > > > > >> > > > between > > it > > > > > >> > > > and my first choice. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On a personal note: I hate using Confluence, because > > > > > >> > > > I > think > > > > > >> > > > the navigation is highly unintuitive, as is the > permissions > > > > > >> > > > model, and I don't like the idea of learning yet > > > > > >> > > > another wiki-syntax (though I've read Confluence > > > > > >> > > > supports some > > limited > > > > > >> > > > Markdown, but probably not the same as > > > > > >> > > > GitHub/Jekyll). I > > also > > > > > >> > > > do not want to set up custom notifications for > > > > > >> > > > watching > yet > > > > > >> > > > another space. If we use Confluence, I will probably > > > contribute > > > > > >> > > > very infrequently there because of my frustrations > > > > > >> > > > with > > having > > > > > >> > > > used it before. However, that would be my choice, and > should > > > > > >> > > > not be a reason the project chooses one over another. > > > > > >> > > > I'm sharing my personal opinion only because it is > > > > > >> > > > influencing > > my > > > > > >> > > > opinion about the website being more accessible, via > > > > > >> > > > our current GitHub PR/issue/Markdown workflows, and I > > > > > >> > > > wonder > how > > > > > >> > > > many other potential contributors would feel similarly. > It's > > > > > >> > > > hard to know, since it seems like a lot of this is > > subjective, > > > > > >> > > > and is going to come down to a consensus of personal > > > > > >> preferences. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 3:46 PM Dave Marion > > > > > >> > > > <dmario...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > I don't see the website as an area where we would > > > > > >> > > > > have collaborative discussions about an idea. For > > > > > >> > > > > example, > > making > > > > > >> > > > > comments and > > > > > >> > suggestions > > > > > >> > > > on > > > > > >> > > > > a document like you can do in Google Docs. I see > > > > > >> > > > > the > > website > > > > > >> > > > > as a > > > > > >> > place > > > > > >> > > > > where items are documented for user consumption > > > > > >> > > > > after everything has > > > > > >> > been > > > > > >> > > > > finalized. I'm not trying to create a private > > > > > >> > > > > discussion area, I > > > > > >> > think > > > > > >> > > > > anyone can see the wiki (but I think anonymous > > > > > >> > > > > comments > > are > > > > > >> > > > > disabled > > > > > >> > due > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > spam issues). I see no issue with putting > work-in-progress > > > > > >> > > > > documents > > > > > >> > on a > > > > > >> > > > > wiki and referencing them via emails to the dev > > > > > >> > > > > list. I > > > think > > > > > >> > > > > this is > > > > > >> > > > done > > > > > >> > > > > in a lot of other projects. Non-committers that > > > > > >> > > > > don't > have > > > > > >> > > > > access to > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > > > wiki and want to make comments, suggestions, and > > > > > >> > > > > ask questions can > > > > > >> > do so > > > > > >> > > > > via the mailing list. I think it's also possible > > > > > >> > > > > that > > people > > > > > >> > > > > can get confluence accounts (see > > > > > >> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-7058), > > > > > >> > > > > so if a non-committer wanted to participate they could. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 2:53 PM Christopher > > > > > >> > > > > <ctubb...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 1:34 PM Dave Marion > > > > > >> > > > > > <dmario...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I'm opposed to using the website for the > > > > > >> > > > > > > reasons I specified > > > > > >> > > > earlier, so > > > > > >> > > > > > it > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Your reasons that I saw were: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 1. I don't think internal design discussions > > > > > >> > > > > > > should > go > > > on > > > > > >> > > > > > > the > > > > > >> > project > > > > > >> > > > > > website. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > That doesn't look to me like a reason. That > > > > > >> > > > > > appears to > > > just > > > > > >> > > > > > be > > > > > >> > stating > > > > > >> > > > > > the conclusion. Did I miss your reason here? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 2. Changes to the design documents could not be > > > > > >> > > > > > > seen > > by > > > > > >> > > > > > > others > > > > > >> > right > > > > > >> > > > > > away (IIRC changes to the website are built and > > available > > > > > >> > > > > > at https://accumulo.staged.apache.org/, but human > > > > > >> > > > > > intervention is > > > > > >> > > > required > > > > > >> > > > > > to publish it at https://accumulo.apache.org/). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > What do you mean by "others" here? Do you mean > "users", > > as > > > > > >> > > > > > opposed > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > > > > "developers/contributors"? The ASF draws a > > > > > >> > > > > > distinction between "developers/contributors" and > > > > > >> > > > > > "users" as it pertains to official releases. > > > > > >> > > > > > Releases are intended > to > > be > > > > > >> > > > > > consumed by users, and pre-release stuff is > > > > > >> > > > > > intended > to > > be > > > > > >> > > > > > collaborative, open to all potential > > > > > >> > > > > > developers/contributors. Very very rarely are > > > > > >> > > > > > things reserved exclusively for committers. We > > > > > >> > > > > > don't even > have > > a > > > > > >> > > > > > private committers space (the private mailing > > > > > >> > > > > > list is PMC-private, not committer-private). > > > > > >> > > > > > Having a > > distinction > > > > > >> > > > > > between users and > > > > > >> > developers > > > > > >> > > > > > doesn't mean we can't publish things on the website... > > it > > > > > >> > > > > > just > > > > > >> > means > > > > > >> > > > > > that we should be careful about how we do it, > > > > > >> > > > > > which is > > the > > > > > >> > > > > > same > > > > > >> > care > > > > > >> > > > > > we should take regardless of where we put it. > > > Specifically, > > > > > >> > > > > > the > > > > > >> > care > > > > > >> > > > > > we need to take is to avoid marketing pre-release > > content > > > > > >> > > > > > to > > > > > >> users. > > > > > >> > > > > > One way we can exercise this care for content on > > > > > >> > > > > > our website is > > > > > >> > that > > > > > >> > > > > > we can avoid sharing these unpolished designs by > simply > > > not > > > > > >> > > > > > linking them on the site, or by placing them in > > > > > >> > > > > > an > area > > > > > >> > > > > > that is clearly > > > > > >> > marked > > > > > >> > > > > > as intended for devs. But, we have no similar > > distinction > > > > > >> > > > > > between committers and non-committer devs for > > > > > >> > > > > > which we should avoid sharing pre-release content > > > > > >> > > > > > under > > > development. > > > > > >> > > > > > In fact, it is the > > > > > >> > opposite... > > > > > >> > > > > > we should be developing openly so as to allow > > > > > >> > > > > > room for > > > > > >> > non-committers > > > > > >> > > > > > to become committers through participation in > > development > > > > > >> > activities. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > As for the staging/publication of the website, > > > > > >> > > > > > that's > > just > > > > > >> > > > > > a > > > > > >> > mechanic > > > > > >> > > > > > for verifying the website isn't broken before we > > > > > >> > > > > > serve > > it. > > > > > >> > > > > > It's > > > > > >> > not a > > > > > >> > > > > > mechanism for keeping things internal vs. shared > > > > > >> > > > > > and doesn't have anything to do with the > > > > > >> > > > > > separation > between > > > > > >> > > > > > devs and users. We > > > > > >> > already > > > > > >> > > > > > publish Draft contents to the website, as well as > > > > > >> > developer-specific > > > > > >> > > > > > documentation not intended for users. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > We've even specifically published > > > > > >> > > > > > work-in-progress > > design > > > > > >> > > > > > documents there, of the same type that seems to > > > > > >> > > > > > be the basis of this conversation ( > > > > > >> https://accumulo.apache.org/design/system-snapshot). > > > > > >> > I > > > > > >> > > > > > would strongly prefer us to continue to do it > > > > > >> > > > > > this > way, > > > > > >> > > > > > rather than create a new space, and have these > > > > > >> > > > > > kinds > of > > > > > >> > > > > > things scattered in multiple places. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > If, on the other hand, you intend to say that > > > > > >> > > > > > these > > should > > > > > >> > > > > > be > > > > > >> > private > > > > > >> > > > > > because they aren't ready for other potential > > > contributors, > > > > > >> > > > > > then I would argue that we're an openly developed > > > project... > > > > > >> > > > > > if something isn't ready to be shared with other > > potential > > > > > >> > > > > > contributors / developers, such that you want to > > > > > >> > > > > > keep > it > > > > > >> > > > > > internal to existing committers, then it's not > > > > > >> > > > > > ready > to > > be > > > > > >> > > > > > contributed to the project at all... because we > > > > > >> > > > > > don't restrict collaboration to only existing committers. > That > > > > > >> > > > > > would prevent others from participating and > > > > > >> > earning > > > > > >> > > > > > the merit to become committers, and that's not > something > > > we > > > > > >> > > > > > should > > > > > >> > be > > > > > >> > > > > > doing. Anything that is okay to share with > > > > > >> > > > > > existing committers > > > > > >> > should > > > > > >> > > > > > be okay to share to other potential contributors > > > > > >> > > > > > who > > want > > > > > >> > > > > > to participate, and should be done in a space > > > > > >> > > > > > that > > allows > > > > > >> > > > > > them to do that. The website is a perfect space > > > > > >> > > > > > for > > that, > > > > > >> > > > > > and has everything > > > > > >> > we > > > > > >> > > > > > need. I'm actually not sure about Confluence... I > > suspect > > > > > >> > > > > > non-committers wouldn't be able to participate > > > > > >> > > > > > there because they probably can't get accounts for it. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > looks like we need to wait for INFRA to fix > > > > > >> > > > > > > Confluence. I'd be curious how > > > much > > > > > >> > > > > > > we > > > > > >> > need to > > > > > >> > > > use > > > > > >> > > > > > > the mailing list during the design phase. We > > > > > >> > > > > > > can announce meeting > dates/times > > on > > > > > >> > > > > > > the > > > > > >> > mailing > > > > > >> > > > list > > > > > >> > > > > > > and post links to meeting notes in Confluence. > > > > > >> > > > > > > Ultimately, decisions > > made > > > > > >> > > > > > > by the > > > > > >> > people > > > > > >> > > > > > that > > > > > >> > > > > > > want to be involved will turn into pull > > > > > >> > > > > > > requests against the codebase > > which > > > > > >> > comitters can > > > > > >> > > > > > weigh > > > > > >> > > > > > > in on. When you say, "... but decisions about > > > > > >> > > > > > > those would still need to > be > > > > > >> > > > > > > done on the > > > > > >> > > > mailing > > > > > >> > > > > > > list." Are you saying that we need to discuss > > > > > >> > > > > > > every single design decision on the mailing > > > > > >> > list? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > Yes and no. I am saying that decisions need to > > > > > >> > > > > > happen > on > > > > > >> > > > > > the > > > > > >> > mailing > > > > > >> > > > > > list, but I agree with you that this can be > > > > > >> > > > > > satisfied through pull requests. I just wanted to > > > > > >> > > > > > emphasize that regardless of where we do that > > > > > >> > > > > > pre-decision > > collaboration, > > > > > >> > > > > > that collaboration should not be misconstrued as > > > > > >> > > > > > a > > > decision > > > > > >> > > > > > to > > > > > >> accept those ideas into the project. > > > > > >> > The > > > > > >> > > > > > decision occurs during the PR or other activity > > > > > >> > > > > > that interfaces > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > > > > the mailing list, subsequent to the collaboration > > > > > >> > > > > > in > the > > > > > >> > design/idea > > > > > >> > > > > > phase. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > As for the pre-decision collaboration space we're > > > > > >> > > > > > discussing, I > > > > > >> > just > > > > > >> > > > > > want to be careful that we're not creating such a > space > > in > > > > > >> > > > > > an exclusionary way that allows only existing > committers > > > to > > > > > >> > participate, > > > > > >> > > > > > that excludes other potential contributors. This > > > > > >> > > > > > is > > still > > > > > >> > > > > > an openly-developed project, and we should > > > > > >> > > > > > collaborate > > in > > > a > > > > > >> > > > > > space > > > > > >> > that is > > > > > >> > > > > > not exclusive to existing committers, but open to > > > > > >> > > > > > non-committer contributors and potential > > > > > >> > > > > > contributors > as > > > > well. > > > > > >> > > > > > So, while we may > > > > > >> > want > > > > > >> > > > > > to keep a line separating dev activity from user > > > > > >> > > > > > consumption (an important separation that relates > > > > > >> > > > > > to official ASF releases), we > > > > > >> > should > > > > > >> > > > > > not be drawing a line between committer-devs as > > "internal" > > > > > >> > > > > > and contributor-devs as "external". The website, > > > > > >> > > > > > with > > its > > > > > >> > > > > > own issue tracker, the ability to render > > > > > >> > > > > > markdown, do reviews, and collaboratively edit, > > > > > >> > > > > > seems like the > ideal > > > > > >> > > > > > place to me. We've used > > > > > >> > it > > > > > >> > > > > > before for the same purpose, and I think we > > > > > >> > > > > > should > > > continue > > > > > >> > > > > > to do > > > > > >> > so. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 12:56 PM Christopher > > > > > >> > > > > > > <ctubb...@apache.org > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > So, I agree a space would be helpful. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Although > it's > > > old > > > > > >> > > > > > > > school > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > inconvenient, the mailing list is the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > canonical > > place > > > > > >> > > > > > > > for > > > > > >> > > > discussion. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > We currently use GitHub issues a lot, but > > > > > >> > > > > > > > that's > > > copied > > > > > >> > > > > > > > to a > > > > > >> > > > mailing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > list (as is our old JIRA space), so if people > > > > > >> > > > > > > > want > > to > > > > > >> > participate > > > > > >> > > > > > > > without a GitHub account, they can still do that. > > > There > > > > > >> > > > > > > > are > > > > > >> > certain > > > > > >> > > > > > > > options that are perhaps less convenient, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > such as > > just > > > > > >> > > > > > > > using > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > mailing list and our dev SVN space, but still > > > > > >> > > > > > > > more appropriate > > > > > >> > than > > > > > >> > > > > > > > options that would be less ubiquitous for > potential > > > > > >> > participants. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I think the ASF Confluence is probably fine, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > for storing, > > > > > >> > editing, > > > > > >> > > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > collaborating on shared documents, but > > > > > >> > > > > > > > decisions > > about > > > > > >> > > > > > > > those > > > > > >> > would > > > > > >> > > > > > > > still need to be done on the mailing list. If > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I remember > > > > > >> > > > correctly, we > > > > > >> > > > > > > > used to have a Wiki space, prior to it being > > > > > >> > > > > > > > transferred to Confluence, but it was poorly > > > > > >> > > > > > > > maintained, so we abandoned it in > > > > > >> > > > favor > > > > > >> > > > > > > > of using the website for docs. I could be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > mis-remembering, but > > > > > >> > I > > > > > >> > > > think > > > > > >> > > > > > > > this is the case. It might explain why you > > > > > >> > > > > > > > can't > > > create > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a > > > > > >> > > > Confluence > > > > > >> > > > > > > > space. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > My preference would be to just use the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > website. I > > > think > > > > > >> > > > > > > > it's > > > > > >> > fine > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > have a dev / design area of the website, and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > we > can > > > > > >> > > > > > > > discuss on > > > > > >> > > > GitHub > > > > > >> > > > > > > > issues for the accumulo-website repo. That is > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a > bit > > > > > >> > > > > > > > less > > > > > >> > convenient > > > > > >> > > > > > > > than Confluence if it's used heavily, but > > > > > >> > > > > > > > it's > more > > > > > >> > > > > > > > convenient > > > > > >> > in > > > > > >> > > > the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > sense that it's more accessible and fits more > > > > > >> > > > > > > > in > > line > > > > > >> > > > > > > > with our > > > > > >> > > > current > > > > > >> > > > > > > > mode of operation. Plus, when a document is > > > > > >> > > > > > > > final, > > > it's > > > > > >> > > > > > > > easy to > > > > > >> > > > link > > > > > >> > > > > > > > to from our documentation, without making > > > > > >> > > > > > > > users > jump > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > another service to view docs. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I would be opposed to using GitHub wiki or a > > > > > >> > > > > > > > new > git > > > > repo. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > We > > > > > >> > have > > > > > >> > > > > > > > enough repos. Although it seems like they are > free, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > there is > > > > > >> > still > > > > > >> > > > a > > > > > >> > > > > > > > lot of boilerplate work to maintain them, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > from > > > managing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > .github/workflows, .github/CONTRIBUTING.md, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > etc., > to > > > > > >> > .asf.yaml, to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > README, to keeping copyright dates updated in > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the NOTICE file, > > > > > >> > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > more. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > In summary, my preference: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 1. Keep a space in accumulo-website, discuss > > > > > >> > > > > > > > on GH issues and > > > > > >> > > > mailing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > list (strongly preferred) 2. Confluence, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > discuss > on > > > > > >> > > > > > > > mailing list (prefer over other > > > > > >> > options, > > > > > >> > > > but > > > > > >> > > > > > > > not a fan) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 3. GitHub wiki, discuss on mailing list > > > > > >> > > > > > > > (strongly prefer not > > > > > >> > to use > > > > > >> > > > > > this > > > > > >> > > > > > > > option) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 4. New GitHub repo, discuss on GH issues and > mailing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > list > > > > > >> > (strongly > > > > > >> > > > > > > > prefer not to use this option) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 12:30 PM Ed Coleman < > > > > > >> > edcole...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Currently, asf cannot create new wiki's > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > because > > of a > > > > > >> > Confluence > > > > > >> > > > > > issue ( > > > > > >> > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-2 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 4291 > ) > > I > > > > > >> > > > > > > > chatted > > > > > >> > with > > > > > >> > > > > > infra > > > > > >> > > > > > > > and in response they created that issue. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > To expand on this discussion, I would like > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > to > toss > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > out > > > > > >> > another > > > > > >> > > > > > > > alternative to discuss / explore. What if we > used a > > > > > >> > > > > > > > separate > > > > > >> > > > GitHub > > > > > >> > > > > > > > project, something like Accumulo-Design, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > just > like > > > > > >> > accumulo-proxy > > > > > >> > > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > accumulo-examples. As a separate project, it > would > > be > > > > > >> > available > > > > > >> > > > for > > > > > >> > > > > > > > collaboration for the community, but remain > separate > > > > > >> > > > > > > > from main > > > > > >> > > > project > > > > > >> > > > > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the website to keep current code / > > > > > >> > > > > > > > documentation / design > > > > > >> > clearly > > > > > >> > > > > > separate > > > > > >> > > > > > > > from speculative design discussions. As a > project: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > - document history would be preserved with > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > git > > > commit > > > > > >> > history. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > - document collaboration could be done with > normal > > > PR > > > > > >> > > > submissions / > > > > > >> > > > > > > > reviews. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > - issues could be used to discuss design > aspects, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > capturing > > > > > >> > the > > > > > >> > > > > > comment > > > > > >> > > > > > > > history. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > The biggest downside is that it would be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > yet > > another > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > project > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > > > > follow / > > > > > >> > > > > > > > track. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > For me, I think the issue is that we need a > > public, > > > > > >> > collaborative > > > > > >> > > > > > space > > > > > >> > > > > > > > to hold design discussions. Neither the main > project > > > or > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the > > > > > >> > > > web-site > > > > > >> > > > > > seem > > > > > >> > > > > > > > quite appropriate and Confluence seems to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > lack the > > > > > >> > collaboration > > > > > >> > > > that > > > > > >> > > > > > can > > > > > >> > > > > > > > be achieved with github. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > We need a space to capture the redesign and > > whatever > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > we > > > > > >> > select > > > > > >> > > > can be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > made to work - I'm just wondering what > > > > > >> > > > > > > > provides > the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > easiest > > > > > >> > forum > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > > build > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a collaborative space for the Accumulo community. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Ed Coleman > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On 2023/02/28 16:35:31 dlmar...@comcast.net > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Circling back on this issue - I agree > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > that > > > comments > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > >> > such > > > > > >> > > > make > > > > > >> > > > > > > > sense for internal design documents. I'm > > > > > >> > > > > > > > going to create an > > > > > >> > INFRA > > > > > >> > > > > > ticket > > > > > >> > > > > > > > for a cwiki space for Accumulo unless there > > > > > >> > > > > > > > are > any > > > > > >> objections. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From: Drew Farris <d...@ill.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 5:16 PM > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@accumulo.apache.org > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Enable Github wiki > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > in > > > > asf.yaml? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned, wikis can provide a > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > streamlined collaborative > > > > > >> > > > editing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > workflow that's less labor intensive than > updating a > > > > > >> website. > > > > > >> > They > > > > > >> > > > can > > > > > >> > > > > > > > promote collaboration by providing specific > tooling > > to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > support > > > > > >> > > > > > comments, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > revisions and iteration. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > In terms of preservation, GH wikis act > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > just > like > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > any other > > > > > >> > Git > > > > > >> > > > > > > > repository, with a remote at (for example) > > > > g...@github.com > > > > > : > > > > > >> > > > > > > > apache/accumulo.wiki.git > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > IIRC the pages are just GH flavored markdown. > > > There > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > are at > > > > > >> > > > least a > > > > > >> > > > > > few > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Apache projects using them. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > However, GH wikis lack some features that > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I > feel > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > >> > important > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > support collaborative authoring. For example, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the ability to > > > > > >> > > > comment > > > > > >> > > > > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > discuss specific passages in a document is a > feature > > > > > >> > > > > > > > that's > > > > > >> > > > present in > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Cwiki, but not in GH wikis. I've come > > > > > >> > > > > > > > appreciate > > this > > > > > >> > > > > > > > this in > > > > > >> > my > > > > > >> > > > google > > > > > >> > > > > > > > docs and office workflows, so expect that it > > > > > >> > > > > > > > would > > be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > useful > > > > > >> > for > > > > > >> > > > > > Accumulo > > > > > >> > > > > > > > design discussions too. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 2:54 PM Keith > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Turner < > > > > > >> > > > ktur...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I would like to try a wiki for design > > documents, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I think > > > > > >> > it > > > > > >> > > > > > would be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > less cumbersome than the website and we > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > can always link > > > > > >> > from > > > > > >> > > > the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > website and issues to the wiki. I > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > think its > > ok > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > to give > > > > > >> > it a > > > > > >> > > > try > > > > > >> > > > > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > abandon it in the future, if abandoned > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > would > > > just > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > >> > > > > > properly > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > communicate that. The content should > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > be > > > archived > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > >> > Apache > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > infrastructure, so if GH wiki does not > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > do > that > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > then we > > > > > >> > should > > > > > >> > > > > > not use > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > it. If GH wiki is not an option then > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > could > > try > > > > > cwiki. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 7:55 AM > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > <dlmar...@comcast.net> > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I reverted the change. I didn't think > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > it > > would > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > be a big > > > > > >> > > > deal, > > > > > >> > > > > > but > > > > > >> > > > > > > > if > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > requires discussion, then let's discuss it. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for a place to host > information > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > related to > > > > > >> > > > internal > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > design > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > discussions. I envision these to be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > living documents that > > > > > >> > > > will be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > updated over time as the > design/implementation > > > > > >> > progresses and > > > > > >> > > > > > that > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > other committers will be able to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > comment on > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > edit. I > > > > > >> > don't > > > > > >> > > > > > feel > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > that the website is the correct place > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > for > this > > > > > >> because: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. I don't think internal design > > discussions > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > >> > go > > > > > >> > > > on the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > project > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > website. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Changes to the design documents > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > could > > not > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > be seen > > > > > >> > by > > > > > >> > > > > > others > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > right > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > away (IIRC changes to the website are > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > built > > and > > > > > >> > available at > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://accumulo.staged.apache.org/, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > but > > human > > > > > >> > intervention > > > > > >> > > > is > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > required to publish it at > > > > > >> https://accumulo.apache.org/). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I looked in the INFRA issues and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > other > > > projects > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > >> > using > > > > > >> > > > the > > > > > >> > > > > > GH > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Wiki > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > feature and I saw no mention of backing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > it > up > > or > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > >> > > > requirement > > > > > >> > > > > > to > > > > > >> > > > > > > > do > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > so (maybe they rely on GitHub backing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > it > up?). > > > It > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > does > > > > > >> > appear > > > > > >> > > > > > that we > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > would need an INFRA ticket so that they > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > can modify the > > > > > >> > GitHub > > > > > >> > > > > > project > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > settings to lock the GitHub wiki down > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > so > that > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > >> > > > committers can > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > modify it. If GitHub Wiki is not > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > acceptable, > > > then > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I think > > > > > >> > > > Apache > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Confluence ( > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org) might be an > > > acceptable > > > > > >> > > > alternative. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Christopher > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > <ctubb...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2023 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > 4:41 AM > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To: accumulo-dev > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > <dev@accumulo.apache.org > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: comm...@accumulo.apache.org > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [accumulo] branch main > updated: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Enable > > > > > >> > Github > > > > > >> > > > > > wiki in > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > asf.yaml > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't recall a discussion about > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > this > > change, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > but I > > > > > >> > think > > > > > >> > > > it > > > > > >> > > > > > goes > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > against previous efforts to make the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > website > > the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > one > > > > > >> > > > canonical > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > location for our documentation. I don't > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > even think infra > > > > > >> > is > > > > > >> > > > > > backing > > > > > >> > > > > > > > up > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > wiki repos, so there wouldn't even be a > record > > > of > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > >> > wiki > > > > > >> > > > > > contents > > > > > >> > > > > > > > in > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ASF spaces (vs. the main repo, which is > backed > > > up > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > >> > GitBox > > > > > >> > > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > issue tracker, which CCs the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > notifications > > > list). > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > In short, I think this should be > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > reverted > > and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > >> > should not > > > > > >> > > > > > use the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > GitHub wiki. If we need to store > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > documents > in > > a > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > version > > > > > >> > > > > > controlled > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > way, we can store them on the website, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > or in > > our > > > > > >> > project's > > > > > >> > > > SVN > > > > > >> > > > > > dev > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > space. The wiki is just another place > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > people would have > > > > > >> > to > > > > > >> > > > > > follow if > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > they want to participate, and I don't > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > think > > that > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > serves > > > > > >> > us. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Therefore, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I think we shouldn't use it. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2023, 15:59 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > <dlmar...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > This is an automated email from the > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ASF dual-hosted > > > > > >> > git > > > > > >> > > > > > > > repository. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > dlmarion pushed a commit to branch > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > main > in > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > repository > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gitbox.apache.org/repos/asf/accumulo. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > git > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > The following commit(s) were added > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > >> > refs/heads/main by > > > > > >> > > > this > > > > > >> > > > > > > > push: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > new ae8a817e7b Enable Github > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > wiki > in > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > asf.yaml > > > > > >> > > > > > ae8a817e7b is > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > described below > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > commit > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ae8a817e7b2af8c64096ed1a4274eaef44c > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 0e677 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Author: Dave Marion < > dlmar...@apache.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > AuthorDate: Fri Feb 24 15:59:10 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2023 > -0500 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Enable Github wiki in asf.yaml > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- .asf.yaml | 2 +- > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > deletion(-) > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/.asf.yaml b/.asf.yaml > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > index > > > > > >> > > > > > bc2c943e82..08aa357082 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > 100644 > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- a/.asf.yaml > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > +++ b/.asf.yaml > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -27,7 +27,7 @@ github: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > - big-data > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > - hacktoberfest > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > features: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > - wiki: false > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > + wiki: true > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > issues: true > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > projects: true > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
