P.S. I'm ready to help, but don't know how. On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 16:48 Anton Zayniev <[email protected]> wrote:
> To make things clear -- I don't have strong opinion that slack is better. > I just like to address initial thoughts of newcomer-developer. Since the > dev world communication is currently very slack-oriented, I use it as a > main reference. I see the point that dev list is probably better and mostly > agree. But currently it is too hard to understand it. I think it is > important to change current state, that sounds like "love it or leave it" > unless you have spent enough time to understand why it is not. Since this > is Apache-way we can probably take some best practices from other projects, > or invent ours and spread it to the Apache community. > Anton > > On 2020/01/11 22:28:31, Kaxil Naik <[email protected]> wrote: > > To answer your questions Anton, > > > > Slack is good for quick communication and for user-queries but not great > > for Dev communication. > > > > One of the very recent examples was of recent AIP discussions about > > Reschedule Operators (or Async Operators). I missed the "group creation" > on > > Slack for that SIG (Special Interest Group) as Slack already has 100s if > > not more messages daily and hence also missed the informal meeting which > I > > (and other users like me) would have loved to be a part of. > > > > It is not easy to keep up with the messages over on Slack. We currently > > have more than ~4600 users on Slack and it is mostly used as a > > faster-alternative of StackOverflow. > > As the original creator of our Slack Workspace with Sid, the original > idea > > was to use it as a medium for users to gets their doubts cleared from > > committers and other fellow users. > > We also have a "how-to-pr" and "development" channels for users who need > > some assistance or sometimes what the PR tests to be restarted. > > > > But it is definitely not a drop-in replacement for the dev-list where > there > > are talks about architectural design, Roadmap discussion going on. You > can > > argue that we could use a Slack > > channel to do that, however, once an email is sent to the dev list it is > > public and for everyone to see, Slack is a messaging platform, hence > users > > can delete the messages for whatever reason. > > > > I can add more documentation in Contributing.rst to explain which medium > > should be used. > > > > Regards, > > Kaxil > > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM Anton Zayniev <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > That was me, got mixed my mail accounts. > > > Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only > how > > > to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird > legacy > > > solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing . > > > > > > Anton > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 00:43 A Z <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it > > > > provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to > answer > > > and > > > > can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes > > > you'd > > > > like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). > Slack/Gitter > > > > provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email > is > > > > very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to > get > > > > rid of. > > > > > > > > 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better > than > > > > usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I > > > > switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages: > > > > a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it > > > > b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting, > > > underscoring, > > > > indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, > but > > > It > > > > is way harder to navigate there. > > > > c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different > branches, > > > so > > > > it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole > > > > discussion (or vice-versa). > > > > d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to > > > reread > > > > some points in the discussion. > > > > e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, > etc). > > > > They're not that crucial but make communication easier. > > > > f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive > > > there. > > > > Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort. > > > > > > > > 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still > > > just > > > > Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion. > > > > > > > > 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to > mail > > > > list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the > community > > > > then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think > the > > > > main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of > > > > developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar > > > > messaging tool. > > > > > > > > On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight > > > (@Anton > > > > > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next > year > > > on > > > > > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some > effort > > > > into. > > > > > So I would love to learn more. > > > > > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like > to > > > try > > > > > to use the > https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] > > > to > > > > > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ? > > > > > > > > > > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in > > > > asynchronous > > > > > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response > immediately, > > > > nor > > > > > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache > > > Way. > > > > > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different > > > > > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and > > > > expected. > > > > > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this > > > > > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface > > > (Anton?) > > > > is > > > > > your expectation about immediacy of communication? > > > > > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] ? > like > > > > > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that > different > > > from > > > > > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years > now > > > as > > > > my > > > > > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked > back > > > > after > > > > > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and > useful > > > > it is > > > > > to use web interface for writing emails or messages? > > > > > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices? > > > > > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with > > > > quoting > > > > > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much > > > > better in > > > > > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother > you > > > > Anton > > > > > with those? > > > > > > > > > > J. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
