+1 for dropping slack On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Anthony Scopatz <scop...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am +1 for dropping slack as well, for all of the reasons mentioned. > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:53 AM Dhruv Madeka <mad...@nyu.edu> wrote: > > > Here's my best guess, emails force everyone on the list to read it, so > they > > have to meet a higher bar of importance? > > > > Pure guess there, im just channeling my experiences- I dont mind mailing > > dev lists personally > > > > Dhruv > > > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Phillip Cloud <cpcl...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Dhruv, > > > > > > I'm curious why the dev mailing list is considered intrusive. Can you > > > expand a bit on that? I've always thought of mailing lists to be *the* > > > place where people go to ask questions about a project in a way that is > > > open to all. They are also archived and organized in some way that > makes > > it > > > easy to go back and look at specific topics without having to piece > > > together a topic's history from a large tapestry of interactions. If > > > anything, I view chat as *more* intrusive since there's IMO an > > expectation > > > of a faster response given that chat is real-time. > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:13 AM Dhruv Madeka <mad...@nyu.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > Not to jump in too randomly, but for jupyter-widgets/bqplot > > > > <https://github.com/bloomberg/bqplot> - we haven't found an optimal > > > > solution to this. > > > > > > > > - The dev mailing list is often considered to be intrusive > > > > - GitHub issues arent really used for simple questions or non-bug > fixes > > > > - Gitter remains our most popular source of questions, which suffers > a > > > lot > > > > of the problems of Slack outlined in Wes' email > > > > > > > > We're considering discuss forums, specially after the large success > of > > > the > > > > PyTorch <https://discuss.pytorch.org> and MXNet < > > > https://discuss.mxnet.io> > > > > forums for building community, allowing comfort in asking simple > > > questions > > > > and being stored/googleable > > > > > > > > Dhruv > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 4:25 AM, Wes McKinney <wesmck...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > hi all, > > > > > > > > > > I wanted to bring up some concerns I have about the Slack room > hosted > > > > > at http://apachearrow.slack.com. > > > > > > > > > > Corporate communications have changed a lot in recent years with > the > > > > > new wave of IRC-like chat systems such as HipChat and Slack. In > many > > > > > companies, Slack has become a preferred form of communication over > > > > > e-mail or other asynchronous messaging tools. This trend is > > negatively > > > > > impacting Apache Arrow in some ways that I will explain. > > > > > > > > > > Initially we created the Arrow Slack channel as a means of > secondary > > > > > communication, to facilitate real-time discussions and help build > the > > > > > community. So people, particularly newcomers, are coming to the > > > > > project and seeing 4 ways to communicate: > > > > > > > > > > * dev@ Mailing list > > > > > * JIRA > > > > > * GitHub > > > > > * Slack > > > > > > > > > > As a result of broader trends in the world, they are electing to > use > > > > > Slack as their first, primary channel to interact with the project. > > > > > This is bad for many reasons: > > > > > > > > > > * Slack is essentially private. While anyone can join Slack, chats > > are > > > > > not archived in any public place, nor are they searchable through > > > > > internet search portals. I do not think it meets the public > > > > > communication requirements of Apache projects in general > > > > > * We've exceeded the message limit for free Slack channels; > upgrading > > > > > to a paid Slack plan for Apache Arrow, with 650+ members, would be > > > > > very expensive > > > > > * Only 3 out of the top 20 Arrow contributors (by # of commits) are > > > > > regularly on the Slack channel. I don't use Slack, for example, > and I > > > > > would rather not be expected to > > > > > * We are geo-distributed in many time zones; even if we all used > > > > > Slack, synchronous/real-time chat to discuss the project is > > frequently > > > > > impractical > > > > > > > > > > Because of the "real-time" nature of IRC-like systems, people's > > > > > discussions and questions get intermingled, so keeping track of > > > > > longer-running discussions may be difficult. It's hard to know when > > > > > someone's question has been answered or whether people have > > > > > sufficiently discussed a particular topic. > > > > > > > > > > Many discussions or questions are by their nature asynchronous, and > > it > > > > > may take 24-72 hours or more for Arrow contributors to make a > > > > > thoughtful reply. > > > > > > > > > > As a result of all of this, we are missing opportunities to have > > > > > deeper discussions, develop the Arrow roadmap, create new JIRAs to > > > > > capture bug reports or feature requests, and other activities of > > > > > healthy open source communities. Additionally, the private nature > of > > > > > Slack is causing organizational knowledge (particularly Q&A / FAQs) > > to > > > > > essentially be lost. Users with questions won't stumble on answers > by > > > > > searching on Google (as they would with a mailing list or > > > > > StackOverflow). > > > > > > > > > > I don't think Slack is necessarily bad for users in a corporate > > > > > environment; in many companies it is expected that all people will > > > > > have the Slack client open at all times. This isn't the case here, > > > > > though. > > > > > > > > > > My strong preference in light of the activity I have been observing > > on > > > > > Slack (which I encourage you to explore yourselves) would be to > close > > > > > the channel and direct discussions or questions take place on the > > > > > mailing list, JIRA, or GitHub (all of which are archived on one or > > > > > more ASF mailing lists). Since migrating to Gitbox, we have enabled > > > > > GitHub issues on the repository, which has helped lower the barrier > > > > > for newcomers, but a large percentage of the time GitHub issues > would > > > > > be better as JIRA issues or e-mails (which is what the GitHub issue > > > > > template says, alas). > > > > > > > > > > Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Wes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Asst. Prof. Anthony Scopatz > Nuclear Engineering Program > Mechanical Engineering Dept. > University of South Carolina > scop...@cec.sc.edu > Cell: (512) 827-8239 > Book a meeting with me at https://scopatz.youcanbook.me/ > Open up an issue: https://github.com/scopatz/me/issues > Check my calendar > <https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=scopatz%40gmail.com> >
