On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Claus Ibsen <claus.ib...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Christian Schneider > <ch...@die-schneider.net> wrote: >> I have another proposal that could work better and is quite near to what we >> have. >> >> org.apache.camel.management.api
We could consider placing the new ManagedXXX annotations in this package in light of that this is the package structure we want to go with in the future, eg Camel 3.0. And then lave the current API as is, so there is no trouble for out existing user base. >> org.apache.camel.management.event >> org.apache.camel.management.impl >> > > This kind of split into fine grained sub packages is a neat idea. > However I suggest to keep this for Camel 3.0 where the camel-core can > be possible be split into smaller JARs and separate API vs default > impl. > > As I have said many times. Camel 2.x is 2+ years old, and we are in > the 9th release, and we have a large end user base who depend upon the > API is > kept stable as is. > > > >> eventually we could have >> org.apache.camel.management.api.annotations >> > > I actually dont like the .annotation package. For me an annotation is > just like any other API, whether its an interface, enum, exception, > etc. > > >> So the idea in this case is to have the module management on top level. >> Basically I like this even more than a technical split (api, impl) at the >> top level. >> >> The main change would be to leave the org.apache.management package empty. >> So a split of api+event in one jar and impl in another would be easier. >> This would also match very well with how osgi jars work. Where you can have >> the whole management in one jar and only publish the api+event packages. >> > > Yeah that seems like a good plane for Camel 3.0. > > And talking about Camel 3.0, we may start a [DISCUSS] thread to start > talking about when we should go about doing it. > In terms of your work on the API in the camel-core, we may push > forward and get sooner started on Camel 3.0. > > > >> Christian >> >> Am 24.08.2011 23:45, schrieb Hadrian Zbarcea: >>> >>> Actually I think it would be better to put annotations in their own >>> package: >>> >>> org.apache.camel.annotation >>> org.apache.camel.annotation.management >>> org.apache.camel.annotation.etc... >>> >>> Then it won't feel weird that >>> org.apache.camel.management is not there >>> >>> My $0.02, >>> Hadrian >>> >>> >>> On 08/24/2011 01:55 PM, Christian Schneider wrote: >>>> >>>> Actually JDk and spring are two very good examples how to not do it :-) >>>> >>>> I guess in the JDK no one cared as you will always have it. Btw. I guess >>>> everyone agrees that the JDK is a mess architecturally. Btw. he JDK >>>> extensions ship separate API jars like JAXB api. So they seem to have >>>> learned. >>>> >>>> In spring I suspect it is on purpose. They could provide API jars that >>>> make you independent of their implementation. By combining API and impl >>>> they force you into having a hard dependency on spring. >>>> You had to remove the spring JMX annotations as we did not want to have >>>> their impl. If they had cleanly separated their API from the impl we >>>> could have kept the one API jar with the annotations and just >>>> implemented them ourself when running outside of spring. >>>> >>>> So having the annotations in the management package is a very bad idea. >>>> A subpackage would work on a pure simple package perspective but I think >>>> it would be bad to have a top level package with implementations and a >>>> subpackage with the API. >>>> >>>> We can move around the management stuff at the moment as my commit >>>> changed it anyway. So before Camel 2.9 comes out we are free to move >>>> them. >>>> >>>> api.management of course only makes sense if we intend to put more stuff >>>> there but I think it would be a good idea to do so. >>>> Having a top level api package will also make it easier to create a pure >>>> API jar for camel 3.0. I think it would be strange if the API jar would >>>> contain >>>> >>>> org.apache.camel >>>> org.apache.camel.spi >>>> org.apache.camel.management.annotation >>>> >>>> but not >>>> org.apache.camel.management >>>> >>>> Btw management.annotation is not enough anyway as we have more >>>> management interfaces that have to live in the API space. So >>>> management.api would be better but I would prefer to have api at the top >>>> level so the user can clearly see that everything api.* is part of the >>>> API. >>>> >>>> In any case we need to separate the management API from the management >>>> impl classes. If we do not do it then we have no chance to avoid cycles. >>>> Besides that how should we make it possible that the components only >>>> need to depend on the API if we mix things. For example a component may >>>> want to use the management annotations or another management interface >>>> but it should not know the impl. >>>> >>>> Btw. the event classes should also be part of the API as they are >>>> necessary to understand management events. As they live in a separate >>>> package already the does not depend on the management impl I did not >>>> move them but they would be better placed in api.management.events. >>>> >>>> Christian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Am 24.08.2011 19:12, schrieb Claus Ibsen: >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Christian Schneider >>>>> <ch...@die-schneider.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Claus, >>>>>> >>>>>> we can do that but then we have to move the impl classes somewhere >>>>>> else. We >>>>>> may not mix impl and api in the same package. This is what leads to >>>>>> cycles. >>>>>> >>>>> That is actually common. For example look at the JDK >>>>> Map (API) and HashMap (Impl) are both in java.util package. >>>>> >>>>> However these annotations are not regular interfaces, that end users >>>>> is supposed to implement. >>>>> Or for example that we in the Apache Camel provides 2+ different >>>>> implements of those annotations. >>>>> >>>>> As an end user I would feel natural these annotations are in the >>>>> mangement package as they are part of the management >>>>> (end user) API in Camel. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Spring framework put these annotations at >>>>> >>>>> http://static.springsource.org/spring/docs/3.0.x/javadoc-api/org/springframework/jmx/export/annotation/ManagedOperation.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We could also have a annotation subpackage >>>>> (org.apache.camel.management.annotation) >>>>> but we usually dont have that, eg there are no annotation package for >>>>> @Consume, @Produce, @EndpointInject etc. >>>>> >>>>> Alternatively we could move them in the root package, but as you said >>>>> there is already plenty of APIs in that package. >>>>> >>>>> Putting them in org.apache.camel.api seems a bit weird, as they would >>>>> be the only pieces in there. >>>>> And for Camel 2.x we should keep the API stable and not move around >>>>> stuff all the time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Christian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Am 24.08.2011 17:53, schrieb Claus Ibsen: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Christian Schneider >>>>>>> <ch...@die-schneider.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So where do you propose to put them? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. org.apache.camel >>>>>>>> 2. org.apache.camel.api.management >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I propose to put them here, where they where already >>>>>>> 3. org.apache.camel.management >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These annotations are part of the management API in Camel and IMHO >>>>>>> should be in that package. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I propose to go with 2 and create an api package with subpackages >>>>>>>> so we >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> structure org.apache.camel better. In the long run I would like to >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>> the whole camel api into an api package to make it clearer but that >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> probably create too much incompatibility. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Christian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Am 24.08.2011 14:13, schrieb Claus Ibsen: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Christian Schneider >>>>>>>>> <ch...@die-schneider.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder what our scope for the org.apache.camel.spi package is >>>>>>>>>> vs the >>>>>>>>>> org.apache.camel (API) package. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I know two valid definitions for API vs SPI: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1) API interfaces are called by the user to invoke functionality >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> framework. So API interfaces are implemented by the framework. SPI >>>>>>>>>> interfaces are implemented by the user to change functionality of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> framework or for callbacks >>>>>>>>>> 2) SPI interfaces are for third party modules while API >>>>>>>>>> interfaces are >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So the current case for me is the new JMX annotations. Are they SPI >>>>>>>>>> interfaces or API interfaces? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They are API interfaces. Just like @Consumer, @Produce and any of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> other API Camel annotations we have. >>>>>>>>> Its just that these annotations is for management enabling your >>>>>>>>> business logic / custom components or whatnot. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So what is your opinion about the specific and the general case. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a side question: The org.apache.camel package has grown quite >>>>>>>>>> large. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> think we should create specialized packages for it. As we are >>>>>>>>>> talking >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> the camel API org.apache.camel.api.* would be a good name in my >>>>>>>>>> opinion. >>>>>>>>>> So >>>>>>>>>> the questions are: Should we create such specialized packages? >>>>>>>>>> Should >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> move API parts there? Should we only use the new packages for new >>>>>>>>>> stuff? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Christian >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Christian Schneider >>>>>>>>>> http://www.liquid-reality.de >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Open Source Architect >>>>>>>>>> Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Christian Schneider >>>>>>>> http://www.liquid-reality.de >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Open Source Architect >>>>>>>> Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Christian Schneider >>>>>> http://www.liquid-reality.de >>>>>> >>>>>> Open Source Architect >>>>>> http://www.talend.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Christian Schneider >> http://www.liquid-reality.de >> >> Open Source Architect >> Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com >> >> > > > > -- > Claus Ibsen > ----------------- > FuseSource > Email: cib...@fusesource.com > Web: http://fusesource.com > Twitter: davsclaus, fusenews > Blog: http://davsclaus.blogspot.com/ > Author of Camel in Action: http://www.manning.com/ibsen/ > -- Claus Ibsen ----------------- FuseSource Email: cib...@fusesource.com Web: http://fusesource.com Twitter: davsclaus, fusenews Blog: http://davsclaus.blogspot.com/ Author of Camel in Action: http://www.manning.com/ibsen/
