> I also still think of Cayenne as young, with its best years and greatest > adoption still ahead of it. So any changes made now are preparing for a > cleaner and happier future :).
I agree. The prerequisites are: 1. Simplify. Less optionality, more focus on common general cases. This will result in API changes but will also remove big chunks of functionality (on the scale of earlier ROP removal). Reducing the query zoo to like 3 main types; immutable stack; get rid of nested contexts (I suspect some people are gonna object); get rid of data rows; collapse Db / Obj mapping layers into a single ORM one (EOF-style ... my biggest regret from the early days of Cayenne that I didn't insist on it); do something with insanely complex cache structure, etc. 2. Fix obvious gaps. Proper vertical inheritance, new horizontal inheritance, etc. The existing users will appreciate these (or get upset by the need to upgrade :)). But the question is what's next and what an "ORM of the Future" would look like. For anyone to decide to switch from Hibernate to Cayenne, there has to be something fresh and qualitatively different. Whatever this is, it will likely revolve around ease of mapping by humans and agents and super fast performance. After the "optionality reduction" pass we can do a lot for performance, but it is not immediately obvious how to significantly improve the ORM ergonomics. Andrus > On Sep 3, 2026, at 9:23 AM, Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> wrote: > > (pardon my comically late replies, I'm abhorrently busy these first days > after summer and being a socially awkward programmer, human contact gets > de-prioritized) > > I'm a big fan of those great end results you refer to :). > > And my opinion might be skewed (with my projects being somewhat homogeneous > and not too huge in scope or complexity) but even in my larger projects, I > generally don't consider API changes a big deal — they're statically > verifiable and just about always for the better, for both users and library > developers (not least these days when users have LLMs to assist with > API-updates). > > Behavioural changes may be a different issue (the select/transaction change > being the reason I held back a bit on using -SNAPSHOT until M3 was released) > . But in the case of Cayenne, even these don't scare me that much, given the > code's test coverage. > > I also still think of Cayenne as young, with its best years and greatest > adoption still ahead of it. So any changes made now are preparing for a > cleaner and happier future :). So; congrats again on the release. My apps are > running happily ever since upgrade, and the improved SQL-logging is a very > real quality-of-life enhancement during development. > > Cheers, > - hugi > > >> On 25 Aug 2026, at 21:44, Andrus Adamchik <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Great feedback. Keeps me motivated :) Every time I embark on a coding cycle >> resulting in a lot of breaking changes, I'm like "the end result seems >> great, but then a bunch of people are going to get confused and have to >> re-learn stuff" :) And there are still a lot of candidates left. >> >> >>> On Aug 25, 2026, at 4:51 PM, Hugi Thordarson <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Awesome! >>> >>> First, thanks for UPGRADE.md, it makes these updates much easier. >>> ~20 maps updated and 9 apps deployed with M3 in a couple of hours (M2 -> >>> M3). Most projects more or less just (1) opening/updating the projects/maps >>> -> (2) Updating runtime creation code to use new APIs -> (3) re-configure >>> logging -> (4) build and deploy. No surprises. >>> I'd call that a lovely update process, given that large-ish change in the >>> model layer (removal of DataNodes — which I immediately like; think it >>> makes the whole setup feel simpler). >>> >>> And I think I can definitely feel improved performance? Although that >>> should probably be considered conjecture for now, since I haven't measured >>> anything yet. Possibly everything just feels fast after a couple of hours >>> upgrading boilerplate :) >>> >>> Oh, and the modeler's new clothes look really nice. >>> >>> Cheers, thanks and once again, congrats on a great release! >>> - hugi >>> >>> >>>> On 25 Aug 2026, at 18:23, Nikita Timofeev <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> 5.0-M3 is live now. >>>> It was a rather quick release, thanks everyone again! >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 2:45 PM Nikita Timofeev <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> Javadocs are missing from the Central for this and the M2 release; this >>>>> seems not critical for the milestone. Should be fixed for the next one. >>>>> >>>>> Here's a final voting result: >>>>> >>>>> Andrus Adamchik (PMC): +1 >>>>> John Huss (PMC): +1 >>>>> Nikita Timofeev (PMC): +1 >>>>> >>>>> I will finalize the release later today. >>>>> Thank you, everyone! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2026 at 6:32 PM John Huss <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) verified signatures >>>>>> 2) verified archives are basically identical between platforms >>>>>> 3) RAT indicates no unlicensed files >>>>>> 4) compiled from source >>>>>> 5) unit tests ran successfully >>>>>> 6) macOS specific and Platform-agnostic modelers launch on macOS >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 21, 2026 at 10:27 AM Andrus Adamchik <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My checklist is green. I am +1. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> + MD5/SHA512 matches >>>>>>> + Signature checks >>>>>>> + rat passes >>>>>>> + builds from source >>>>>>> + Modeler runs on OS X >>>>>>> + Cross-platform Modeler runs on OS X >>>>>>> + Upgrade Bootique using the Maven repo >>>>>>> + Upgrade Agrest using the Maven repo >>>>>>> + Upgrade LinkMove using the Maven repo. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FWIW, DataNode unwinding from XML allowed to simplify Bootique >>>>>> integration >>>>>>> a lot. Cleaner design paying off. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Andrus >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2026, at 5:32 AM, Nikita Timofeev < >>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here's a next 5.0 milestone release. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Release notes: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cayenne/blob/refs/tags/5.0-M3/RELEASE-NOTES.txt >>>>>>>> Maven repo: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> https://repository.apache.org/content/repositories/orgapachecayenne-1064/ >>>>>>>> Assemblies: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/cayenne/5.0-M3/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please evaluate and cast your votes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> Nikita Timofeev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Nikita Timofeev >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Nikita Timofeev >>> >> >
