Hi Jarek, But I still can't believe this could be legal for the ASF to do. I would love it to be ok, but right now it's even problematic to even have links to commercial offerings regarding Apache projects, because that would endanger our non-profit status. I just can't believe something like this could even be possible.
Chris -----Original Message----- From: Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> Sent: Montag, 9. Mai 2022 17:53 To: dev@community.apache.org Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea? And a comment - if, and only if ASF could become the Fiscal Host for all those initiatives and it would be legal from the point of view of the bylaws of the Foundation, this concern of yours Chris should be automatically handled: > I mean with most companies in the Industry, they only work with > preferred vendors and they have a limited amount of “slots” on that list. So, they usually have business relationships with the bigger companies. If we don’t have a good open-source Support Inc. able to fill one of these slots, it doesn’t matter how many there are. The invoicing would be directly with the ASF - even though ASF would not be "owning" the relationship. Yeah. That precludes any "Agreement" with the ASF, but maybe there are a number of companies that would be open to the approach that they are supporting an initiative from a PMC but the invoice goes to the ASF. This is even better that a separate legal entity with ASF blessing (but of course there are many legal/responsibility etc. questions such setup involves - which is more on the legal side). J. On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 5:43 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: > > What does it mean to “enable” marketing? If that’s the same level of > marketing we get at the ASF already, then it’s dead in the water for > most projects. > > The best is to show an example here. > > This is the initiative I recently supported > https://opencollective.com/devfest-for-ukraine/ (And I heartily > recommend it - I know the organizers and they are very legit). > > "Enable marketing" in the sense that OpenCollective pre-vets their > collectives and you can market it yourself via social media and other > channels and it is not a scam. I think anyone running any kind of > collective like that (including PMCs and others) are responsible for > their own marketing, using the networking, social media, tools, direct > outreach etc. Expecting that someone will do it for you is not going to work. > > Having a landing page like that which is hosted with a reputable > organisation that pre-vets their campaigns and one that you can see > who the people are, you can see who else is supporting it is a > fantastic marketing tool that you can use. And this is really good > value that such organisations can bring. > > J. > > > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 5:28 PM Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> What does it mean to “enable” marketing? If that’s the same level of >> marketing we get at the ASF already, then it’s dead in the water for >> most projects. >> >> — >> Matt Sicker >> >> > On May 9, 2022, at 10:22, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote: >> > >> > >> >> >> >> I think the non-profit charity aspect definitely would disqualify >> >> the >> ASF >> > as being one of these Fiscal Hosts. But in general, it does sound >> > like >> they >> > could be something usable, just not using the ASF as Fiscal Host. >> > >> > I am not sure to be honest. From at least looking at the >> > description of what Fiscal Host is, this is mainly about "legal >> > entity", "being able to issue invoices" and that's about it. >> > >> > Even if you look at the fiscal hosts that the open-collective >> > manages, >> they >> > have a 501(C) US-Based charity foundation as one of the fiscal hosts: >> > https://opencollective.com/foundation - which I think is the same >> regime >> > as the ASF. >> > >> > See: >> > https://docs.opencollective.com/help/fiscal-hosts/fiscal-hosts >> > >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 5:11 PM Christofer Dutz < >> christofer.d...@c-ware.de> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Roman and Jarek, >> >> >> >> well the reason I was proposing something new was that I did try >> >> to participate with some of the existing initiatives like >> >> Tidelift, but >> they >> >> showed a great amount of disinterest. It seems as if only the >> >> projects >> big >> >> enough are considered worthy of being supported. The entity I >> >> proposed should be available for any project, no matter what size it is. >> >> >> >> Yes, it could just be a new company and wouldn't need to have the >> blessing >> >> of the ASF, but then there would be yet another Support Inc. >> Effectively >> >> all splitting the cake up into smaller pieces hereby keeping each >> >> one >> from >> >> not reaching the breaking point in which things would start >> >> running on their own. >> >> >> >> That's why I thought: Something with explicit ties to the ASF >> >> could benefit from being considered the “official” way to get >> >> support or at >> least >> >> the way the ASF considers to be absolutely in-line with its >> >> policies >> and >> >> might help reaching the critical mass needed to work. >> >> >> >> I mean with most companies in the Industry, they only work with >> preferred >> >> vendors and they have a limited amount of “slots” on that list. >> >> So, >> they >> >> usually have business relationships with the bigger companies. If >> >> we >> don’t >> >> have a good open-source Support Inc. able to fill one of these >> >> slots, >> it >> >> doesn’t matter how many there are. >> >> >> >> In general, I’d be happy, if an existing company could provide >> >> this service, but as I mentioned, my condition for accepting this >> >> as a >> solution >> >> would be that every project wanting to do so, could do their >> >> business though them. Tidelift has proven to only select the filet >> >> parts, which >> I >> >> consider inacceptable for being considered as being a solution to >> >> this problem. >> >> >> >> And to what Jarek said. I think the non-profit charity aspect >> definitely >> >> would disqualify the ASF as being one of these Fiscal Hosts. But >> >> in general, it does sound like they could be something usable, >> >> just not >> using >> >> the ASF as Fiscal Host. >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> >> >> Sent: Montag, 9. Mai 2022 11:49 >> >> To: dev@community.apache.org >> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Crazy or good Idea? >> >> >> >> Very good points Roman. I think it's great to think about it with >> >> the building business "mindset" - this is the only way it can >> >> actually >> succeed. >> >> But maybe we do not have to go this way. >> >> The #1 seems much more attractive and there are other options. >> >> >> >> I think Open Collective is as close as it can be to the 'Apache Way" >> when >> >> it comes to enablers and the economy of scale is already there I think. >> >> >> >> I've been participating with several campaigns now through them - >> >> they seem to be they don't even want to "own the relation" between >> >> the "collective individuals" and "sponsors". >> >> >> >> They seem to be pretty much 100% of what I consider as "enabler" - >> >> https://opencollective.com/how-it-works: >> >> >> >> * Managing payments and admin >> >> * enabling easy marketing and promotion >> >> * basically enabling a group of people to establish effective, >> repeating >> >> campaigns and building long-lasting relationships generally >> >> focused on "doing good". >> >> * the "collectives" decide themselves on the scope and conditions >> >> of >> the >> >> campaign they run - but eventually it's all based on the >> >> reputation of >> the >> >> people who run the collective to be trusted by the supporters. >> >> * you can organize your "collective" there without legally >> incorporating >> >> it (by a group of individuals) and get anyone to support it. >> >> >> >> I think the only remaining question is - how feasible and >> >> attractive >> such >> >> "collective" might be for Sponsoring companies. >> >> >> >> And there is an interesting option that might be actually a good >> response >> >> to it and a way how such a collective **might** get reputation. >> >> The Apache Software Foundation **could** become a "Fiscal Host" >> >> there https://docs.opencollective.com/help/fiscal-hosts/fiscal-hosts - >> >> i.e. >> an >> >> entity that holds the funds and manages the legal/bank account but >> >> it >> is >> >> not involved in any way with the contracts and decisions of the >> >> "collective". >> >> >> >> A fiscal host is a legal company or individual who holds a >> >> Collective’s funds in their bank account and can generate invoices >> >> and receipts for supporters and sponsors. You can think of a >> >> fiscal host as an umbrella organization for the Collectives in it. >> >> >> >> I think such "Fiscal Host" is precisely the "missing" link we did >> >> not >> have >> >> so far. Of course it needs to be checked from the legal side - >> >> what is >> the >> >> responsibility and whether it is in-line with the ASF bylaws and >> mission, >> >> but seems like becoming "Fiscal Host" in open collective is >> >> precisely >> what >> >> the ASF could do. And then it gets even better, because such >> >> Fiscal >> Host >> >> might host mutliple collectives: >> >> - one per PMC for example - why not >> >> - "Security at the ASF" - for multiple projects >> >> >> >> And many others. The nice thing there is that IF the ASF will not >> charge >> >> the collectives, OpenCollective does not charge their 15% cut. And >> >> any collective can "apply" to be hosted by a fiscal host. I am not >> >> sure >> what >> >> are the rules and policies there, but I believe the collectives >> >> have >> to be >> >> "approved" by the ASF host. And this is as close to "endorsement" >> without >> >> actually a legal responsibility as it can be. The "sponsors" would >> >> deal with the ASF that would issue the invoices, while the >> >> "business relationship" of Sponsor will be with the collective organizers. >> >> >> >> This really sounds rather cool if we could make ASF become such a >> Fiscal >> >> Host. >> >> >> >> Few claims they do: >> >> >> >> * "Unlike other crowdfunding platforms, Open Collective is >> >> designed for ongoing collaborations. That means your funding and >> >> community of >> support >> >> doesn’t disappear after a single campaign, or if the initial >> >> organizers move on. >> >> * "Our code is fully transparent and open source, just like our budget. >> >> You own your data: we’ll never sell it or lock you in." >> >> * "Open Collective uniquely combines a powerful tech platform with >> fiscal >> >> hosting, enabling Collectives to raise and spend money without >> >> legally incorporating, worrying about taxes, or opening a bank account." >> >> >> >> J. >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 11:16 AM Roman Shaposhnik >> >> <ro...@shaposhnik.org >> > >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Chris, thanks for sort of reviving the old thread I had before >> >>> the >> >>> war: I'm slowly coming back to my more regular Open Source life >> >>> from all the craziness of the past two months. Because of that, >> >>> there's not much to report back -- but I will share a few points >> >>> and comment on a few of yours. Hope this will help move things along. >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 3:11 PM Christofer Dutz >> >>> <christofer.d...@c-ware.de> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi all, >> >>>> >> >>>> now that the Aprils Fool Joke has worn off a bit, I think I can >> >>>> post >> >>> this here. I at first suggested this in the board list before >> >>> April 1st, as I wanted to make sure this hasn’t been wiped off >> >>> the table as a silly idea before. >> >>>> >> >>>> Turns out that I didn’t get a single “silly idea” response. >> >>>> >> >>>> As you all might know I have been working on finding ways to >> >>>> finance my >> >>> work on open-source, but in an open-source way that others can >> >>> also profit from what I might find out. >> >>>> >> >>>> There are some projects that managed to form or attract >> >>>> companies to >> >>> grow around them. These usually don’t have problems finding funds >> >>> to finance further development. >> >>>> However, we also have a large number of projects that are not as >> >>>> big, or >> >>> a large number of people working on our projects, but don’t work >> >>> for those companies. >> >>>> >> >>>> So, these people are generally relying on finding contracts >> themselves. >> >>> This usually is problematic as many larger companies don’t do >> >>> business with individuals. >> >>>> Also is it often tricky to get the legal documents and contracts >> >>>> right >> >>> and then not even talking about how long payments usually take. >> >>>> >> >>>> Another thing is that the ASF is a non-profit organization and >> >>>> therefore >> >>> it’s challenging to advertise commercial offerings around Apache >> >> projects. >> >>>> >> >>>> As an example: One of the things I found out with my >> >>>> crowd-funding >> >>> experiment is that this doesn’t work. Admittedly I wasn’t >> >>> expecting it to work. Companies just can’t donate large amounts >> >>> of money without any assurances. But I did learn one thing: My >> >>> crowd-funding experiment was in a way the most successful thing I did. >> >>>> >> >>>> The thing was, that I listed up things that could be on the >> >>>> roadmap and >> >>> I added a price-tag to them. This is one thing an Apache project >> >>> just couldn’t do. So even if I didn’t get a single cent in >> >>> donations for my work, I was approached by multiple companies >> >>> willing to finance individual campaigns, but with a normal consulting >> >>> contract. >> >>>> >> >>>> Now there are also companies like Tidelift, that want to close >> >>>> this >> >> gap. >> >>> However, we are still a bit unsure how to align the interest of >> >>> that company with the values of the ASF. And there’s the fact >> >>> that not everyone is able to profit from Tidelift. I for example >> >>> tried reaching out to them several times for offering commercial >> >>> PLC4X support, but the only responses I got, were people wanting >> >>> to discuss how my business could profit from using more >> >>> open-source ;-) So for me Tidelift is not an option as not everyone can >> >>> use it. >> >>>> >> >>>> Now let me get to my idea: >> >>>> What If there was a separate legal entity closely related to the >> >>>> ASF >> >>> (Let’s call it “Support Inc.” for now). I would even propose that >> >>> the oversight entity for Support Inc. should be the ASF board. >> >>> This would assure the company is perfectly in-line with the ASF and its >> >>> values. >> >>> >> >>> First of all, I 100% agree with Sam -- there's absolutely 0 >> >>> reason that I see these two entities should have (structurally!) >> >>> any more ties than ASF and let's say Cloudera. If you disagree on >> >>> that point strongly -- now would be a good time to list all your reasons >> >>> for why. >> >>> >> >>> Back to building an independent business: my hypothesis back when >> >>> I started the Tidelift thread is that we basically have two choices: >> >>> 1. piggy back off of somebody who is already doing a similar >> >>> kind of a business (and convince them to tweak it to be fully >> >>> aligned with ASF's vision) 2. have a brand new business >> >>> >> >>> This thread of yours seem to be focused on #2 so I'll stay with >> >>> that (and will comment on #1 in a separate thread). >> >>> >> >>> I'll start with saying that I've been talking to a LOT of my VC >> >>> and OSS Foundations friends about #2 lately and the consensus >> >>> seems to be that it is all about the economics of bootstrapping >> >>> this kind of a business. The economics simply doesn't seem to >> >>> work out (at least not in the US market) until you hit a certain >> >>> number of customers AND committers in what, effectively, can be >> >>> described as a marketplace. We can debated at what # of both of >> >>> these you can hope to be at least somewhat revenue neutral, but >> >>> it is pretty clear that the numbers are significant. Effectively, you >> >>> need seed money. >> >>> >> >>> This kind of seed money can either come from (please add to the >> >>> list if I missed anything): >> >>> 1. large Co's (FANG, etc.) >> >>> 2. traditional VCs >> >>> 3. non-traditional VCs >> >>> >> >>> #1 I am not hopeful -- and if there's anyone on this list who can >> >>> help move a needle in that direction I'd love to hear about that >> >>> >> >>> #2 the feedback universally is "you're proposing to build a >> >>> marketplace, there's a few already (e.g. Tidelif), please explain >> >>> why yours will be any better/different/etc. -- if you can't at >> >>> least go talk to existing ones and try to join forces" >> >>> >> >>> #3 (this could be something as crazy as Elon Musk seeding it btw) >> >>> is where I'm focusing right now (plus a bit of "go talk to them" >> >>> from #2) >> >>> >> >>> At any rate -- until there's a concrete proposal about where this >> >>> kind of money can come from -- I don't think we will be making >> >>> any progress. >> >>> >> >>> But suppose we (and by "we" here I mean a group of individuals in >> >>> the ASF who would want to step up as founders of something like >> >>> this) did get some money -- we will have to have some rules of >> >>> engagement with the ASF. >> >>> >> >>> That seems to be the rest of your points: >> >>> >> >>>> Individuals could sign up on Support Inc’s website for providing >> >>> commercial services around Apache projects. These services could >> >>> be Consulting, Feature development, Training, Commercial Support. >> >>>> On this site a user could also add possible feature-development >> >>> campaigns with a price-tag attached, just like I did on my website. >> >>>> >> >>>> If a company wants to finance a feature, get support, >> >>>> consulting, or >> >>> training around an Apache project, this would be the well-known >> >>> website somebody would go to first. >> >>>> >> >>>> Support Inc. would provide the contracts >> >>> >> >>> Obvious point, but this is exactly where the liability starts and >> >>> it needs to be managed (for which seed $$$ is required). >> >>> >> >>>> and therefore the individual wouldn’t have to (I usually spent >> >>> 2000-4000€/year on legal advice for stuff like that). >> >>> >> >>> Yup. The economy of scale will obviously help, but not until we >> >>> hit 100s of participants in our marketplace. >> >>> >> >>>> Also, would Support Inc. be a bigger company the customer would >> >>>> be doing >> >>> business with, which would probably ease the problem of getting >> >>> into the companies with Chris Inc. >> >>> >> >>> Business development/marketing for Support Inc. will also require >> seed. >> >>> >> >>>> The contracts would be between the Support Inc. and the >> >>>> customer, and >> >>> the customer would pay to Support Inc. The developer would have a >> >>> contract with Support Inc. and be paid from this but give Support Inc. >> >>> a certain percentage of the contact to cover its expenses (But in >> >>> contrast to other pure for-profit companies, this cut would be a >> >>> lot >> >> less than usual). >> >>> >> >>> Again -- typical marketplace mechanics -- all great but (cue tons >> >>> of MBA articles on Uber, etc.) requires "buying" at least one end >> >>> of it (typically with VC money) first. >> >>> >> >>>> Now a developer could probably choose from different models, >> >>>> where he >> >>> gets paid instantly (but then give Support Inc. a bigger cut of >> >>> the >> >>> profits) or wait for the customer to pay. >> >>>> The services the new company would provide, would be taking care >> >>>> of the >> >>> payments, the legal issues and provide the infrastructure for >> >>> finding commercial support offerings. >> >>>> And if people know this is something integrated into the general >> >>> open-source ecosystem, I assume people would probably try less to >> >>> screw with as they know it might backfire PR-wise, just like >> >>> dragging the ASF to court wouldn’t be the smartest thing to do. >> >>>> >> >>>> If the company earns money, it could become a sponsor of the ASF. >> >>>> >> >>>> What do you think? >> >>>> >> >>>> I hope you’re now not going to point at me laughing because I >> >>>> like the >> >>> idea. >> >>> >> >>> I think: >> >>> 0. I am *really* excited about this -- to a point where I'd love >> >>> to be one of the founder's in a business like that, but we need >> >>> at least a few more 1. I DO NOT think it is viable as an >> >>> "organic growth" type of a business -- hence it'll required seed >> >>> >> >>> Putting both of these together -- for now I'll focus on trying to >> >>> finding an existing marketplace we can mold to our needs. I'm >> >>> still bullish on Tidelift, but I need to re-start a few >> >>> discussions with them on particulars. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> Roman. >> >>> >> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> ---- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org >> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >
