On Oct 2, 2013, at 16:01 , ASF IRC Services <asf...@wilderness.apache.org> wrote:
> Members present: djc, deathbear, nslater, JasonSmith, garren, benoitc, dch, > jan____, strmpnk > > ---------------- > Meeting summary: > ---------------- > > 1. Preface > > 2. Fauxton deploy for 1.5 > a. garren and deathbear to prepare compiled Fauxton in _utils/next (garren, > 2) > > 3. plugins 1.5 > > 4. node view server > > 5. Couchdb Conf Vancouver > a. everyone tell everyone about http://conf.couchdb.org (jan____, 5) > b. put a banner on the website for couchdb conf (nslater, 5) > c. jan____ has spoken to Yuriy about the banner (nslater, 5) > > > -------- > Actions: > -------- > - garren and deathbear to prepare compiled Fauxton in _utils/next (garren, > 13:27:15) > - everyone tell everyone about http://conf.couchdb.org (jan____, 13:56:22) > - put a banner on the website for couchdb conf (nslater, 13:59:29) missed this one in the meeting: - jan to report on plugins state before the end of the day > > IRC log follows: > > > # 1. Preface # > 13:01:45 [garren]: ASFBot: #topic Fauxton deploy for 1.5 > > > # 2. Fauxton deploy for 1.5 # > 13:02:24 [garren]: Ok for Fauxton release. > 13:02:46 [garren]: We can either release Fauxton as a couchapp or we can do a > compile and deploy it to share/www > 13:03:10 [JasonSmith]: IMO I like how Futon builds as part of CouchDB > 13:03:10 [garren]: I like the idea of the share/www and make it similar to > the _util for futon. > 13:03:24 [JasonSmith]: I personally, and for CouchDB hosting, I like to > compile once and it is installed for all users > 13:03:32 [JasonSmith]: garren: +1 > 13:03:40 [jan____]: garren: yeah, could we make it /_utils/next/ or something? > 13:03:41 [garren]: JasonSmith: great, to compile Fauxton we would need node > integrated into the couchdb build process. > 13:04:20 [garren]: Or should one of the fauxton team members rather just > compile beforehand and commit the compiled Fauxton into git? > 13:04:51 [strmpnk]: +1 maybe we should have a _contrib/ > 13:05:37 [garren]: jan____: which is easier at this stage, compiling Fauxton > in the build process or compile it beforehand? > 13:05:39 [JasonSmith]: The way I always imagined it would work was > ./configure would detect if you could build it (you have Node and maybe Grunt) > 13:05:52 [JasonSmith]: Checking for Node.js.....ok > 13:06:25 [garren]: JasonSmith: yeah that makes a lot of sense. > 13:06:40 [garren]: who is the most capable bash-fu expert to help us with > that? > 13:06:47 [strmpnk]: I don't see why the artifacts should be committed. > 13:06:47 [JasonSmith]: To me the thing I am not sure about is, npm installs > at build time? I kind of don't personally like that > 13:06:57 [jan____]: garren: either is possible, I think doing it as part of > the build (like Jason says) makes the most sense, but it would mean some > autofoo work needing to be done > 13:07:02 [JasonSmith]: to me your npm packages should be a build-time > dependency, like libicu or libmozjs > 13:07:43 [JasonSmith]: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I really want to roll it > out on Iris Couch and then overnight anybody can just try it out on their > account > 13:07:50 [jan____]: nslater to the rescue! > 13:07:57 [garren]: JasonSmith: that would be great. > 13:08:29 [jan____]: garren: can you sum up the question for nslater ? > 13:09:01 [garren]: nslater: we trying to find the best way of deploying > Fauxton for the next release. Should we commit the compiled artifacts of > Fauxton into git or.. > 13:09:31 [garren]: should the build process do all that for us. Bearing in > mind that we would then require node plus some npm packages as dependancies > of Couchdb. > 13:10:09 [garren]: It might be easier for this first release just to commit > the compiled artifacts and later we look to integrate Fauxton into the build > process. > 13:10:49 [nslater]: "compiled"? > 13:11:40 [garren]: nslater: We compile all the css, html templates and > javascript and compile it into 3 files. Instead of the 50 or so files we have > in development. > 13:12:09 [nslater]: i think we should do it in make > 13:12:18 [nslater]: note that this doesn't introduce a user dependancy on node > 13:12:42 [nslater]: we could do it so that we ship the pre-compiled files > along with the source > 13:12:47 [garren]: nslater: could you explain a little more. > 13:12:56 [nslater]: sure > 13:13:28 [nslater]: in autotools it is possible to set it up so that during > the "make dist" step of preparing the release tarball, some targets are built > from the sources, and shipped along with the rest of the source, so that end > users don't need to remake them > 13:13:38 [nslater]: the manpages are one example of this (we can't expect > users to have help2man installed) > 13:13:44 [nslater]: the entire docs are another example > 13:13:51 [deathbear]: hi :) > 13:14:00 [garren]: hey deathbear. > 13:14:38 [dch]: hey, late but made it > 13:14:38 [garren]: nslater: that sounds good. Would that mean that the > release manager would then be the only one needing the node dependancies? > 13:14:45 [garren]: hey dch > 13:14:54 [nslater]: garren: yes. or anyone trying to built from a git checkout > 13:15:07 [nslater]: but if you're trying to build from a git checkout then > you need everything else too > 13:15:17 [garren]: ok great. > 13:15:19 [nslater]: i am talking autotools, autoconf, help2man, sphinx, etc, > etc > 13:15:33 [garren]: nslater: would you have time to help us set this up in > make? > 13:15:34 [nslater]: we call these developer dependancies in the root doc files > 13:15:55 [nslater]: garren: how much help do you folks need? are you > comfortable setting up the default targets? > 13:16:11 [nslater]: (which i could then tweak) > 13:16:19 [nslater]: or do you need help with the whole thing? > 13:16:35 [garren]: nslater: to be honest I'm rubbish with make. I could take > a look. Our whole build process is run via grunt which is similar to make. > 13:16:51 [jan____]: I’m happy to land a hand, too, but I will need some > guidance > 13:17:02 [nslater]: don't worry about it. i am happy to pair with garren on > it. it sounds simple enough > 13:17:07 [garren]: So all we would need to do is possibly do a check that > node is installed, install npm dependancies and run grunt release task. > 13:17:07 [nslater]: but thanks for the offer > 13:17:18 [nslater]: garren, we wouldn't install npm stuff from make > 13:17:29 [nslater]: we'd just bail out of configure unless the modules were > detected > 13:17:38 [garren]: ok great. > 13:17:53 [nslater]: jan____ corrects me on this > 13:17:54 [JasonSmith]: To me the most complex and error-prone part is the > rather large npm install > 13:17:55 [garren]: nslater can I follow up with you after this meeting and we > can set a time we both around in the next 24 hrs our so to do this. > 13:17:55 [nslater]: but we'll see when we get to it > 13:18:07 [nslater]: next 24 hours? woo jeez > 13:18:07 [deathbear]: hi, we have a make file for deploying > 13:18:07 [deathbear]: if that helps > 13:18:30 [nslater]: what is "grunt" and do we need to continue using it? > 13:18:39 [jan____]: garren: deathbear: a broader question before we set > times, is Fauxton ready to be shown off in 1.5.0? > 13:18:48 [garren]: deathbear: that could help. Maybe you and I can take a > stab at this today and then get nslater and jan____ to check it and apply any > tweaks. > 13:18:55 [deathbear]: I think it is, as experimental > 13:19:03 [garren]: yeah definitely as experimental. > 13:19:10 [nslater]: when are we pulling the trigger on 1.5.0? > 13:19:11 [deathbear]: we've been working really hard on it since the redesign > 13:19:33 [jan____]: nslater: grunt is a make for JS projects. we definitely > want to keep using it > 13:19:34 [JasonSmith]: nslater: grunt is a build tool, to a first > approximation it is Node.js's make > 13:19:41 [jan____]: nslater: djc wants to cut in ~24 hrs. > 13:19:49 [nslater]: i am wary of including a build tool inside a build tool > 13:19:50 [garren]: nslater: djc sent an email saying he is cutting the > release in the next 24 hrs or so. > 13:19:55 [nslater]: but i guess we did it for sphinx > 13:20:03 [nslater]: jan____: okay then fauxton isn't going to go in > 13:20:17 [jan____]: nslater: why not? > 13:20:24 [nslater]: because i can't commit to getting this working in 24 hours > 13:20:42 [jan____]: tomorrow is a holiday in .de ;) > 13:20:49 [garren]: nslater: can we not rather do a precompiled artifact for > this release? And then after 1.5 integrat into the build procedure > 13:20:57 [jan____]: I can give it a shot. > 13:20:58 [JasonSmith]: nslater: This is what I was saying earlier. I would > say call Grunt a build dpeendnecy > 13:21:06 [jan____]: garren: that’s a decent shortcut > 13:21:08 [JasonSmith]: so you need Grunt the same way you need libicu-dev > 13:21:13 [nslater]: jan____: disagree > 13:21:19 [jan____]: JasonSmith: nslater wasn’t around then > 13:21:28 [nslater]: i think it would run afoul of asf principals > 13:21:44 [jan____]: which one? > 13:22:07 [djc]: (sorry I'm late) > 13:22:15 [nslater]: our source releases should be source releases. they > should contain everything you need to modify and run the product. i don't > think we're allowed, and i don't think we should, ship compiled files > 13:22:53 [garren]: nslater: when we talk compiled files its just a html file, > a javascript file, a css file, a image file and 1 font file. > 13:23:00 [jan____]: our docs are compiled > 13:23:08 [nslater]: jan____: but we also ship the source for them with the > compilation > 13:23:24 [jan____]: we can also ship the fauxton source > 13:23:33 [garren]: yes > 13:23:42 [nslater]: this seems very 11th hour > 13:23:49 [jan____]: plus, it is a preview, not a final release, so I think we > have some leeway for shortcuts > 13:23:56 [nslater]: part of the rolling release schedule is that we don't > panic about this stuff > 13:23:59 [djc]: I think shipping source + "compiled" is fine > 13:24:05 [jan____]: nslater: I think this is a simple issue. > 13:24:05 [nslater]: they'll be another release in a month > 13:24:06 [jan____]: nobody panics > 13:24:08 [nslater]: jan____: i don't feel comfortable doing this > 13:24:20 [nslater]: and i would prefer about 1w to work on the build system > for it > 13:24:44 [nslater]: and even then, i would prefer a bit longer, because i > would have to stop working on everything else couchdb related > 13:24:46 [nslater]: and i have some other pressing items that need my > attention > 13:24:54 [jan____]: src/fauxton/README.md explains how to build from source, > and we also ship share/www/next/ (or whatever) with the compiled version of > fauxton. End of story > 13:25:08 [jan____]: then let’s not integrate that into hte build today but > ship a compiled version > 13:25:33 [nslater]: src/fauxton/ with instructions, and a compiled > share/www/next is not ideal, but i agree it doesn't violate our principals > 13:25:40 [garren]: awesome. > 13:25:48 [deathbear]: :) > 13:26:03 [jan____]: I agree it is not ideal, but it would allow us to ship a > fauxton preview tomorrow :) > 13:26:05 [nslater]: i would like to work on it so that in the next release we > have it properly wired up to the build system > 13:26:11 [jan____]: plus, it is not a dirty hack > 13:26:18 [garren]: deathbear and I can work on getting fauxton working on > _utils/next url. > 13:26:26 [nslater]: (With garren or deathbear or whomever) > 13:26:34 [deathbear]: in the next release fauxton will be even more awesome. > 13:26:43 [jan____]: yeah, I consider it a blocker for a proper fauxton > release that it is integrated into the build system > 13:26:45 [garren]: nslater: I would definintely be happy to help integrate > into the build tools. I do think thats the best option long term. > 13:26:50 [nslater]: okay cool > 13:27:07 [djc]: consensus \o/ > 13:27:15 [garren]: #action garren and deathbear to prepare compiled Fauxton > in _utils/next > 13:27:29 [garren]: everyone happy ready for the next topic? > 13:27:29 [deathbear]: woo > 13:27:38 [djc]: bikeshedding: does _utils-ng/ or something make more sense? > 13:27:38 [jan____]: ^5 > 13:27:54 [deathbear]: ^5 > 13:27:56 [jan____]: djc: literally don’t care > > > # 3. plugins 1.5 # > 13:28:24 [nslater]: wait wait > 13:28:33 [nslater]: is _utils-nx the new X-feature? > 13:28:35 [nslater]: *_utils-ng > 13:28:48 [nslater]: i.e. we're not going to be lumbered with this url choice > are we? > 13:29:02 [djc]: nslater: no > 13:29:19 [djc]: just while it's experimental > 13:29:34 [garren]: djc yea I agree. > 13:30:05 [dch]: ACTION then call it _experimental and make it crystal clear. > But as djc said "don't care" lets pick one. > 13:30:29 [garren]: dch: I can send an email with suggestions and people can > vote on one? > 13:30:52 [JasonSmith]: yeah xylophone > 13:30:52 [jan____]: hell no, just pick one > 13:30:55 [djc]: xylophone > 13:30:59 [dch]: lets not, pick one now. > 13:31:08 [dch]: ding ding > 13:31:15 [garren]: ok we will pick one. > 13:31:23 [garren]: Okay next topic? > 13:31:24 [djc]: yeah > 13:31:32 [jan____]: aye > 13:31:32 [garren]: JasonSmith: can you start up off on plugins for 1.5 > 13:31:32 [djc]: I think jan____ killed plugins for 1.5 > 13:31:47 [JasonSmith]: really? > 13:32:03 [jan____]: soo, I wanted to spend a minute today to see what’s > missing for plugins > 13:32:05 [jan____]: I haven’t managed to do that yet > 13:32:19 [djc]: JasonSmith: if you have round tuits to make it happen, I'm > all for it! > 13:32:22 [jan____]: I think I can frame it shippable, but I only will know > later today > 13:32:27 [djc]: just that jan____ didn't have time, I think > 13:32:42 [jan____]: yeah, I found some time under the carpet > 13:32:49 [jan____]: but not before the meeting > 13:32:59 [JasonSmith]: jan____: I think I am happy with plugins, but just my > definition of "plugins" may be different from yours > 13:32:59 [jan____]: I will update the 1.5 thread on dev@ later today > 13:33:38 [jan____]: JasonSmith: well, you rip out /_plugins and > /_utils/plugins.html > 13:33:40 [jan____]: which is all that I did > 13:34:10 [jan____]: e.g the binary installer & one-click-install-registry page > 13:34:33 [jan____]: the rest were just minimal changes in how CouchDB > operates, but that’s all that you neede > 13:34:33 [jan____]: d > 13:34:57 [benoitc]: one thing to consider is how the pluging would work in a > system where you do live upgrade of a node > 13:35:12 [jan____]: so far the things I am not too happy about are the barren > look of /_utils/plugins.html / same for the fauxton version > 13:35:13 [benoitc]: they won't be part of the release which may be problematic > 13:35:28 [jan____]: benoitc: yeah, totally, but for this release that is out > of scope and won’t work > 13:35:53 [jan____]: e.g. if you do live upgrades you will want to make the > plugins you need part of your source distribution > 13:36:15 [benoitc]: well if we ship it , we make a promise to the user that > it will stay for a long time > 13:36:38 [benoitc]: so we need to make sure it can really exists with a > release system > 13:36:40 [jan____]: benoitc: no, we ship it as “this will change a lot” > 13:36:53 [jan____]: as a preview, this isn’t a commitment yet > 13:37:44 [benoitc]: in the head of people it can be > 13:38:00 [nslater]: well then we need to properly set expectations > 13:38:14 [jan____]: yeah, but we can’t win that. we need to embrace > experimntal features > 13:38:15 [JasonSmith]: I am happy regrading plugins > 13:38:17 [JasonSmith]: regarding plugins > 13:38:22 [benoitc]: why would they care to try a feature that could change a > lot tomorrow > 13:38:30 [JasonSmith]: 1.5 as-is, I myself am happy > 13:38:30 [benoitc]: this is not that i am happy or not > 13:38:38 [benoitc]: i like the idea of having plugins > 13:38:54 [djc]: benoitc: if we document it clearly as changing, then there's > nothing else we can do > 13:38:59 [benoitc]: but i wonder how it can really work with an erlang program > 13:39:08 [djc]: if it changes out from under people, it's their fault for > relying on it > 13:39:24 [djc]: and experimental stuff leads to experimentation, which is good > 13:39:31 [jan____]: benoitc: I don’t feel comfortable shipping plugins as a > long-term feature without having run a test version through a umber of users > 13:39:31 [djc]: we need more ideas about what/how to work this stuff > 13:39:40 [jan____]: regardless of how long we work on it unreleased > 13:39:58 [strmpnk]: benoitc: I agree on the worry about how it might cause > problems but this is why it should be released as experimental, so those his > are explored. > 13:40:55 [benoitc]: i would expect they land in master for a release or two > before going directly in a release anyway > 13:41:09 [benoitc]: at least I wouldn't expect them for 1.5 > 13:41:18 [djc]: benoitc: that's not how we work anymore, master means > releasable > 13:41:33 [benoitc]: yes > 13:41:33 [benoitc]: so it is not in master > 13:41:55 [djc]: yes, but there's also no "bake-time" on master > 13:42:09 [jan____]: benoitc: I can merge it into master within the next 24 > hours and then it is relesable > 13:42:09 [djc]: they bake in releases, need users to mature anyway > 13:42:18 [jan____]: the question is are we happy with the current state > 13:42:43 [jan____]: I think I can be happy with the current + minor fixes > state > 13:42:49 [djc]: I have no answer to that, but am happy to defer to Jan & Jason > 13:43:35 [jan____]: right, again, will look into this after the meeting, but > before tonight > 13:43:55 [benoitc]: i don't see the point to release a thing in 24h that have > never landed in master for a while. > 13:44:18 [benoitc]: this is not how a quality software should work imo but > this is out of topic > 13:44:33 [jan____]: benoitc: we don’t do baking in master anymore. branches > are ready to ship or they are not > 13:44:47 [djc]: okay, I'm ready for the next topic > 13:44:55 [JasonSmith]: Ready > 13:44:55 [garren]: great > 13:44:56 [jan____]: benoitc: and especially with new stuff, we mark it as > experimental, so people can play with it without expecting it to all work > > > # 4. node view server # > 13:45:18 [garren]: jan____: Can you start us off or is it JasonSmith? > 13:45:18 [jan____]: I also don’t quite see why we have to discuss the how of > releases that we had agreed upon again > 13:45:20 [jan____]: ready. > 13:45:28 [JasonSmith]: I am done, plugins look good > 13:45:33 [jan____]: I got it > 13:45:34 [JasonSmith]: fdmanana says hi > 13:46:16 [jan____]: as far as I am concerned the nodejs viewserver works well > enough to ship as an experimental release. There are some obvious todos, but > they can be done later. > 13:46:29 [benoitc]: i don't remember to agree on such thing but anyway it > wasn't the point > 13:46:36 [jan____]: the goal of the release is to get this into people’s > hands so they can play and try to break it > 13:46:36 [benoitc]: i was speaking on a technical level. > 13:46:52 [benoitc]: let's go to the other topic > 13:47:00 [garren]: jan____: is there documentation on how to get it up and > running. Eg I install 1.5 how do I activate the nodejs view server? > 13:47:30 [djc]: the nodejs view server doesn't add any dependencies for > non-users, right? > 13:48:14 [jan____]: djc: correct > 13:48:39 [jan____]: garren: one sec > 13:48:46 [garren]: sure > 13:49:24 [JasonSmith]: jan____: +1 > 13:49:40 [jan____]: garren: > https://github.com/apache/couchdb/blob/1894-feature-experimental-nodejs-couchjs/share/doc/src/experimental.rst > 13:49:49 [jan____]: e.g. this would show up on docs.couchdb.org > 13:50:32 [djc]: I like the looks of this > 13:50:42 [garren]: jan____: perfect thanks. > 13:51:02 [jan____]: :D I made a poinnt of adding docs to get djc approval :D > 13:51:33 [jan____]: it is a little bare-bones, but we can update the doc on > the go > 13:51:33 [djc]: and you shall have it > 13:51:40 [jan____]: (love the new docs immediate publish setup) > 13:51:55 [garren]: Excellent. > 13:52:10 [jan____]: nice > 13:52:17 [jan____]: djc: I’ll get that merged in time > 13:52:40 [garren]: Great any other topics someone wants to add? > 13:53:02 [jan____]: CouchDB Conf Vancouver > 13:53:17 [deathbear]: who is going? > > > # 5. Couchdb Conf Vancouver # > 13:53:24 [jan____]: < > 13:53:26 [deathbear]: I am still thinking about it > 13:53:54 [jan____]: deathbear: would be nice to meet you finally :) > 13:53:54 [nslater]: Yuriy should post an announcement about the tickets to > both public couchdb lists > 13:53:54 [garren]: Unfortunately I can't make it. > 13:54:25 [nslater]: ACTION wished he flew > 13:54:27 [jan____]: It would also be cool if everyone here could use their > social media outreach to get people aware of it > 13:54:32 [benoitc]: i probably can't make it happen. my assistant forgot to > book the flight > 13:54:32 [jan____]: s/get/make > 13:54:41 [deathbear]: nslater are you scared of planes? cause ME TOO. > 13:54:41 [benoitc]: and cascadiajs don't interrest me at all > 13:54:48 [jan____]: benoitc: Doh :( > 13:54:55 [nslater]: idea: hook up skype to a projector that covers one of the > walls. and i can have an omni-tele-presence > 13:55:04 [nslater]: silently watching and judging you all > 13:55:05 [jan____]: heh, cascadia is optional :) > 13:55:20 [jan____]: nslater: sounds good :) > 13:55:27 [nslater]: benoitc: time to get a new assistant! ;) > 13:55:36 [benoitc]: yup but was trying myself to still come even if a flight > is 1700 euros > 13:55:37 [nslater]: deathbear: yes > 13:55:49 [jan____]: #task everyone tell everyone about http://conf.couchdb.org > 13:55:58 [nslater]: is it not #action ? > 13:56:07 [jan____]: benoitc: get in touch if price becomes an issue, we might > be able to help > 13:56:22 [jan____]: #action everyone tell everyone about > http://conf.couchdb.org > 13:56:37 [benoitc]: yuup was about to do it thx > 13:56:45 [benoitc]: can we have an ad on the site ? > 13:56:54 [benoitc]: like banner or sort of ? > 13:56:59 [jan____]: yeah great idea > 13:57:09 [nslater]: +1 > 13:57:15 [jan____]: benoitc: excellent idea, I’mma look after that > 13:57:30 [garren]: Any idea who could do that for us? > 13:57:52 [jan____]: garren: I pinged Yuriy in email > 13:58:00 [nslater]: do we have any designers in da house? > 13:58:14 [garren]: cool. > 13:58:59 [nslater]: ait > 13:59:00 [nslater]: wait > 13:59:08 [nslater]: you've pinged yuriy about the website banner? > 13:59:22 [jan____]: yes > 13:59:29 [nslater]: #action put a banner on the website for couchdb conf > 13:59:38 [nslater]: #info jan____ has spoken to Yuriy about the banner > 13:59:38 [nslater]: okie dokie > 13:59:39 [nslater]: thx > 13:59:45 [jan____]: :) > 13:59:56 [garren]: ok great. > 14:00:01 [nslater]: me and jan____ are in the same room together. this adds a > new dimension to the meeting > 14:00:02 [garren]: ASFBot: meeting end >
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