Hi all, Just an opinion on the built-in <> temporary functions resolution and NAMING issue. I think we should not allow overriding the built-in functions, as this may pose serious issues and to be honest is rather not feasible and would require major rework. What happens if a user wants to override CAST? Calls to that function are generated at different layers of the stack that unfortunately does not always go through the Catalog API (at least yet). Moreover from what I've checked no other systems allow overriding the built-in functions. All the systems I've checked so far register temporary functions in a database/schema (either special database for temporary functions, or just current database). What I would suggest is to always register temporary functions with a 3 part identifier. The same way as tables, views etc. This effectively means you cannot override built-in functions. With such approach it is natural that the temporary functions end up a step lower in the resolution order:
1. built-in functions (1 part, maybe 2? - this is still under discussion) 2. temporary functions (always 3 part path) 3. catalog functions (always 3 part path) Let me know what do you think. Best, Dawid On 04/09/2019 06:13, Bowen Li wrote: > Hi, > > I agree with Xuefu that the main controversial points are mainly the two > places. My thoughts on them: > > 1) Determinism of referencing Hive built-in functions. We can either remove > Hive built-in functions from ambiguous function resolution and require > users to use special syntax for their qualified names, or add a config flag > to catalog constructor/yaml for turning on and off Hive built-in functions > with the flag set to 'false' by default and proper doc added to help users > make their decisions. > > 2) Flink temp functions v.s. Flink built-in functions in ambiguous function > resolution order. We believe Flink temp functions should precede Flink > built-in functions, and I have presented my reasons. Just in case if we > cannot reach an agreement, I propose forbid users registering temp > functions in the same name as a built-in function, like MySQL's approach, > for the moment. It won't have any performance concern, since built-in > functions are all in memory and thus cost of a name check will be really > trivial. > > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:01 PM Xuefu Z <usxu...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> From what I have seen, there are a couple of focal disagreements: >> >> 1. Resolution order: temp function --> flink built-in function --> catalog >> function vs flink built-in function --> temp function -> catalog function. >> 2. "External" built-in functions: how to treat built-in functions in >> external system and how users reference them >> >> For #1, I agree with Bowen that temp function needs to be at the highest >> priority because that's how a user might overwrite a built-in function >> without referencing a persistent, overwriting catalog function with a fully >> qualified name. Putting built-in functions at the highest priority >> eliminates that usage. >> >> For #2, I saw a general agreement on referencing "external" built-in >> functions such as those in Hive needs to be explicit and deterministic even >> though different approaches are proposed. To limit the scope and simply the >> usage, it seems making sense to me to introduce special syntax for user to >> explicitly reference an external built-in function such as hive1::sqrt or >> hive1._built_in.sqrt. This is a DML syntax matching nicely Catalog API call >> hive1.getFunction(ObjectPath functionName) where the database name is >> absent for bulit-in functions available in that catalog hive1. I understand >> that Bowen's original proposal was trying to avoid this, but this could >> turn out to be a clean and simple solution. >> >> (Timo's modular approach is great way to "expand" Flink's built-in function >> set, which seems orthogonal and complementary to this, which could be >> tackled in further future work.) >> >> I'd be happy to hear further thoughts on the two points. >> >> Thanks, >> Xuefu >> >> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 7:11 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Timo & Bowen for the feedback. Bowen was right, my proposal is the >>> same >>> as Bowen's. But after thinking about it, I'm currently lean to Timo's >>> suggestion. >>> >>> The reason is backward compatibility. If we follow Bowen's approach, >> let's >>> say we >>> first find function in Flink's built-in functions, and then hive's >>> built-in. For example, `foo` >>> is not supported by Flink, but hive has such built-in function. So user >>> will have hive's >>> behavior for function `foo`. And in next release, Flink realize this is a >>> very popular function >>> and add it into Flink's built-in functions, but with different behavior >> as >>> hive's. So in next >>> release, the behavior changes. >>> >>> With Timo's approach, IIUC user have to tell the framework explicitly >> what >>> kind of >>> built-in functions he would like to use. He can just tell framework to >>> abandon Flink's built-in >>> functions, and use hive's instead. User can only choose between them, but >>> not use >>> them at the same time. I think this approach is more predictable. >>> >>> Best, >>> Kurt >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 8:00 AM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the feedback. Just a kindly reminder that the [Proposal] >>> section >>>> in the google doc was updated, please take a look first and let me know >>> if >>>> you have more questions. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 4:57 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Timo, >>>>> >>>>> Re> 1) We should not have the restriction "hive built-in functions >> can >>>>> only >>>>>> be used when current catalog is hive catalog". Switching a catalog >>>>>> should only have implications on the cat.db.object resolution but >> not >>>>>> functions. It would be quite convinient for users to use Hive >>> built-ins >>>>>> even if they use a Confluent schema registry or just the in-memory >>>>> catalog. >>>>> >>>>> There might be a misunderstanding here. >>>>> >>>>> First of all, Hive built-in functions are not part of Flink built-in >>>>> functions, they are catalog functions, thus if the current catalog is >>>> not a >>>>> HiveCatalog but, say, a schema registry catalog, ambiguous functions >>>>> reference just shouldn't be resolved to a different catalog. >>>>> >>>>> Second, Hive built-in functions can potentially be referenced across >>>>> catalog, but it doesn't have db namespace and we currently just don't >>>> have >>>>> a SQL syntax for it. It can be enabled when such a SQL syntax is >>> defined, >>>>> e.g. "catalog::function", but it's out of scope of this FLIP. >>>>> >>>>> 2) I would propose to have separate concepts for catalog and built-in >>>>> functions. In particular it would be nice to modularize built-in >>>>> functions. Some built-in functions are very crucial (like AS, CAST, >>>>> MINUS), others are more optional but stable (MD5, CONCAT_WS), and >> maybe >>>>> we add more experimental functions in the future or function for some >>>>> special application area (Geo functions, ML functions). A data >> platform >>>>> team might not want to make every built-in function available. Or a >>>>> function module like ML functions is in a different Maven module. >>>>> >>>>> I think this is orthogonal to this FLIP, especially we don't have the >>>>> "external built-in functions" anymore and currently the built-in >>> function >>>>> category remains untouched. >>>>> >>>>> But just to share some thoughts on the proposal, I'm not sure about >> it: >>>>> - I don't know if any other databases handle built-in functions like >>>> that. >>>>> Maybe you can give some examples? IMHO, built-in functions are system >>>> info >>>>> and should be deterministic, not depending on loaded libraries. Geo >>>>> functions should be either built-in already or just libraries >>> functions, >>>>> and library functions can be adapted to catalog APIs or of some other >>>>> syntax to use >>>>> - I don't know if all use cases stand, and many can be achieved by >>> other >>>>> approaches too. E.g. experimental functions can be taken good care of >>> by >>>>> documentations, annotations, etc >>>>> - the proposal basically introduces some concept like a pluggable >>>> built-in >>>>> function catalog, despite the already existing catalog APIs >>>>> - it brings in even more complicated scenarios to the design. E.g. >> how >>> do >>>>> you handle built-in functions in different modules but different >> names? >>>>> In short, I'm not sure if it really stands and it looks like an >>> overkill >>>>> to me. I'd rather not go to that route. Related discussion can be on >>> its >>>>> own thread. >>>>> >>>>> 3) Following the suggestion above, we can have a separate discovery >>>>> mechanism for built-in functions. Instead of just going through a >>> static >>>>> list like in BuiltInFunctionDefinitions, a platform team should be >> able >>>>> to select function modules like >>>>> catalogManager.setFunctionModules(CoreFunctions, GeoFunctions, >>>>> HiveFunctions) or via service discovery; >>>>> >>>>> Same as above. I'll leave it to its own thread. >>>>> >>>>> re > 3) Dawid and I discussed the resulution order again. I agree >> with >>>>> Kurt >>>>>> that we should unify built-in function (external or internal) >> under a >>>>>> common layer. However, the resolution order should be: >>>>>> 1. built-in functions >>>>>> 2. temporary functions >>>>>> 3. regular catalog resolution logic >>>>>> Otherwise a temporary function could cause clashes with Flink's >>>> built-in >>>>>> functions. If you take a look at other vendors, like SQL Server >> they >>>>>> also do not allow to overwrite built-in functions. >>>>> ”I agree with Kurt that we should unify built-in function (external >> or >>>>> internal) under a common layer.“ <- I don't think this is what Kurt >>>> means. >>>>> Kurt and I are in favor of unifying built-in functions of external >>>> systems >>>>> and catalog functions. Did you type a mistake? >>>>> >>>>> Besides, I'm not sure about the resolution order you proposed. >>> Temporary >>>>> functions have a lifespan over a session and are only visible to the >>>>> session owner, they are unique to each user, and users create them on >>>>> purpose to be the highest priority in order to overwrite system info >>>>> (built-in functions in this case). >>>>> >>>>> In your case, why would users name a temporary function the same as a >>>>> built-in function then? Since using that name in ambiguous function >>>>> reference will always be resolved to built-in functions, creating a >>>>> same-named temp function would be meaningless in the end. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 1:44 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jingsong, >>>>>> >>>>>> Re> 1.Hive built-in functions is an intermediate solution. So we >>> should >>>>>>> not introduce interfaces to influence the framework. To make >>>>>>> Flink itself more powerful, we should implement the functions >>>>>>> we need to add. >>>>>> Yes, please see the doc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Re> 2.Non-flink built-in functions are easy for users to change >> their >>>>>>> behavior. If we support some flink built-in functions in the >>>>>>> future but act differently from non-flink built-in, this will lead >>> to >>>>>>> changes in user behavior. >>>>>> There's no such concept as "external built-in functions" any more. >>>>>> Built-in functions of external systems will be treated as special >>>> catalog >>>>>> functions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Re> Another question is, does this fallback include all >>>>>>> hive built-in functions? As far as I know, some hive functions >>>>>>> have some hacky. If possible, can we start with a white list? >>>>>>> Once we implement some functions to flink built-in, we can >>>>>>> also update the whitelist. >>>>>> Yes, that's something we thought of too. I don't think it's super >>>>>> critical to the scope of this FLIP, thus I'd like to leave it to >>> future >>>>>> efforts as a nice-to-have feature. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 1:37 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Kurt, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Re: > What I want to propose is we can merge #3 and #4, make them >>> both >>>>>>> under >>>>>>>> "catalog" concept, by extending catalog function to make it have >>>>>>> ability to >>>>>>>> have built-in catalog functions. Some benefits I can see from this >>>>>>> approach: >>>>>>>> 1. We don't have to introduce new concept like external built-in >>>>>>> functions. >>>>>>>> Actually I don't see a full story about how to treat a built-in >>>>>>> functions, and it >>>>>>>> seems a little bit disrupt with catalog. As a result, you have to >>> make >>>>>>> some restriction >>>>>>>> like "hive built-in functions can only be used when current >> catalog >>> is >>>>>>> hive catalog". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I've unified #3 and #4 but it seems I didn't update some part >> of >>>>>>> the doc. I've modified those sections, and they are up to date now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, now built-in function of external systems are defined as >> a >>>>>>> special kind of catalog function in Flink, and handled by Flink as >>>>>>> following: >>>>>>> - An external built-in function must be associated with a catalog >> for >>>>>>> the purpose of decoupling flink-table and external systems. >>>>>>> - It always resides in front of catalog functions in ambiguous >>> function >>>>>>> reference order, just like in its own external system >>>>>>> - It is a special catalog function that doesn’t have a >>> schema/database >>>>>>> namespace >>>>>>> - It goes thru the same instantiation logic as other user defined >>>>>>> catalog functions in the external system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please take another look at the doc, and let me know if you have >> more >>>>>>> questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 7:28 AM Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Kurt, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it should not affect the functions and operations we currently >> have >>> in >>>>>>>> SQL. It just categorizes the available built-in functions. It is >>> kind >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> an orthogonal concept to the catalog API but built-in functions >>>> deserve >>>>>>>> this special kind of treatment. CatalogFunction still fits >> perfectly >>>> in >>>>>>>> there because the regular catalog object resolution logic is not >>>>>>>> affected. So tables and functions are resolved in the same way but >>>> with >>>>>>>> built-in functions that have priority as in the original design. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> Timo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 03.09.19 15:26, Kurt Young wrote: >>>>>>>>> Does this only affect the functions and operations we currently >>> have >>>>>>>> in SQL >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> have no effect on tables, right? Looks like this is an >> orthogonal >>>>>>>> concept >>>>>>>>> with Catalog? >>>>>>>>> If the answer are both yes, then the catalog function will be a >>>> weird >>>>>>>>> concept? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Kurt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 8:10 PM Danny Chan <yuzhao....@gmail.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> The way you proposed are basically the same as what Calcite >>> does, I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> we are in the same line. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Danny Chan >>>>>>>>>> 在 2019年9月3日 +0800 PM7:57，Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org>，写道： >>>>>>>>>>> This sounds exactly as the module approach I mentioned, no? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Timo >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 03.09.19 13:42, Danny Chan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Bowen for bring up this topic, I think it’s a useful >>>>>>>>>> refactoring to make our function usage more user friendly. >>>>>>>>>>>> For the topic of how to organize the builtin operators and >>>>>>>> operators >>>>>>>>>> of Hive, here is a solution from Apache Calcite, the Calcite >> way >>> is >>>>>>>> to make >>>>>>>>>> every dialect operators a “Library”, user can specify which >>>>>>>> libraries they >>>>>>>>>> want to use for a sql query. The builtin operators always comes >>> as >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> first class objects and the others are used from the order they >>>>>>>> appears. >>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can take a reference. >>>>>>>>>>>> [1] >> https://github.com/apache/calcite/commit/9a4eab5240d96379431d14a1ac33bfebaf6fbb28 >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Danny Chan >>>>>>>>>>>> 在 2019年8月28日 +0800 AM2:50，Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com>，写道： >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to kick off a discussion on reworking Flink's >>>>>>>>>> FunctionCatalog. >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's critically helpful to improve function usability in >> SQL. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w3HZGj9kry4RsKVCduWp82HkW6hhgi2unnvOAUS72t8/edit?usp=sharing >>>>>>>>>>>>> In short, it: >>>>>>>>>>>>> - adds support for precise function reference with >>>> fully/partially >>>>>>>>>>>>> qualified name >>>>>>>>>>>>> - redefines function resolution order for ambiguous function >>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>>>>> - adds support for Hive's rich built-in functions (support >> for >>>>>>>> Hive >>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>>>>> defined functions was already added in 1.9.0) >>>>>>>>>>>>> - clarifies the concept of temporary functions >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Would love to hear your thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bowen >>>>>>>> >> >> -- >> Xuefu Zhang >> >> "In Honey We Trust!" >>
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