Thanks Chesnay for bringing this up for discussion. +1 for Java 8 deprecation. Every decision has pros and cons. All concerns mentioned previously are fair enough. I think that the active support for Java 8 ending in 4 months will have an impact on the projects that still stick with Java 8 and on Flink users too. Flink should not be the last one to do the migration. It's a good timing to move forward.
Best regards Jing On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:31 AM wenlong.lwl <wenlong88....@gmail.com> wrote: > hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> would you explain more about > what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if we > still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus, we > still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce that > Java 8 support is deprecated. > > > Best, > Wenlong > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <mat...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation! > > It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the > > communities of other > > related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for > the > > future drop of Java 8 > > support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions. > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <t...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we > > > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the > > > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion? > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay. > > > > > > > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java > 11 > > > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to some > > of > > > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of > users > > > are > > > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will drop > > to > > > a > > > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would > suggest > > > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > > > > > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/ > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <trohrm...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for > > > feedback > > > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay! > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Till > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan < > ro...@apache.org > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the > > > previous > > > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other > builds) > > > > > > which have longer support. > > > > > > > > > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for > > > bringing > > > > > > this up! > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Roman > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the > > module > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > in Flink. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler < > > > ches...@apache.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote: > > > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I > cannot > > > wait > > > > > to > > > > > > > > start using some of > > > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's > the > > > same > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > our users as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project > risks, > > > e.g. > > > > > if > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we cannot > > > upgrade > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects > already > > > > > started > > > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other > projects > > > will > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > > >> follow. > > > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to > > drop > > > > > > support > > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate > > > users to > > > > > > start > > > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean > users > > > have > > > > > > less > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > >> to prepare for it. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Ingo > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl < > > > > > > matth...@ververica.com> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics, > > > Chesnay. > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > >>> my > > > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is > > > raising. > > > > > > But I > > > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the > > Java > > > > > > version > > > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this > > > discussion > > > > > > > > thread). > > > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in > > the > > > > > > community > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who > do > > > not > > > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That said, > > > > > > deprecating > > > > > > > > Java > > > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped in > > > 1.16. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> Best, > > > > > > > > >>> Matthias > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek < > > > d...@apache.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This will > > > > > generate > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >>> a > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep > moving > > > the > > > > > > project > > > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong: > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because > his > > > > > > application > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after > all, > > > many > > > > > > systems > > > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and > > Hive) > > > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness, > that > > > this > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps to > > > address > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd > still > > > keep > > > > > > Java 8 > > > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to > > > upgrade, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same > > argument > > > > > later > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > >>> time. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for > both > > > HBase > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed, > so > > > the > > > > > > ball is > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity. > > > > > Generating > > > > > > bit > > > > > > > > >>> more > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and > > learn > > > bit > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > >>> about > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink > > > > > > developments or > > > > > > > > >>> are > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more > > > time for > > > > > > > > >>>> eventual > > > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)? > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972 > > > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415 > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> Best, > > > > > > > > >>>> D. > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li < > > > > > > jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay, > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of > > Flink > > > > > > users. At > > > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because > > his > > > > > > > > application > > > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after > all, > > > many > > > > > > systems > > > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and > > Hive) > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support for > > > Java 8. > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time. > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk < > > > i...@ververica.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi, > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay > already > > > said. > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser < > > > > > > > > >>> mart...@ververica.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Marios > > >
