> @Piotr I guess that could be investigated along with an update of flink-benchmarks to run on Java 11 as well...
I would second Nico's idea to run our benchmarks on Java 11 to see what has changed compared to Java 8. Best, Piotrek śr., 1 gru 2021 o 11:23 wenlong.lwl <wenlong88....@gmail.com> napisał(a): > Thanks for the explanation. > > +1 for putting a bigger emphasis on performance on Java 11+. It would be > great if Flink is already well prepared when users want to do the upgrade. > > > Best, > Wenlong > > On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 16:54, Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> wrote: > > > That is correct, yes. During the deprecation period we won't seen any > > improvements on our end. > > > > Something that I could envision is that the docker images will default to > > Java 11 after a while, and that we put a bigger emphasis on performance > on > > Java 11+ than on Java 8. > > > > On 01/12/2021 02:31, wenlong.lwl wrote: > > > > hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> would you explain more about > > what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if > we > > still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus, > > we still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce > that > > Java 8 support is deprecated. > > > > > > Best, > > Wenlong > > > > On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <mat...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation! > >> It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the > >> communities of other > >> related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for > the > >> future drop of Java 8 > >> support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions. > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <t...@apache.org> wrote: > >> > >> > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we > >> > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the > >> > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion? > >> > > >> > Thomas > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay. > >> > > > >> > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java > >> 11 > >> > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to > some > >> of > >> > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of > >> users > >> > are > >> > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will > drop > >> to > >> > a > >> > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would > >> suggest > >> > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible. > >> > > > >> > > Thanks, > >> > > > >> > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > >> > > > >> > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/ > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <trohrm...@apache.org > > > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for > >> > feedback > >> > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay! > >> > > > > >> > > > Cheers, > >> > > > Till > >> > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan < > >> ro...@apache.org> > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the > >> > previous > >> > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other > >> builds) > >> > > > > which have longer support. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for > >> > bringing > >> > > > > this up! > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Regards, > >> > > > > Roman > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the > >> module > >> > > > > concept > >> > > > > > in Flink. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler < > >> > ches...@apache.org> > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote: > >> > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I > >> cannot > >> > wait > >> > > > to > >> > > > > > > start using some of > >> > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's > >> the > >> > same > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > > our users as well. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project > risks, > >> > e.g. > >> > > > if > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we > cannot > >> > upgrade > >> > > > > them > >> > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects > >> already > >> > > > started > >> > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other > projects > >> > will > >> > > > > likely > >> > > > > > > >> follow. > >> > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to > >> drop > >> > > > > support > >> > > > > > > right > >> > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate > >> > users to > >> > > > > start > >> > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean > >> users > >> > have > >> > > > > less > >> > > > > > > time > >> > > > > > > >> to prepare for it. > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> Ingo > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl < > >> > > > > matth...@ververica.com> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics, > >> > Chesnay. > >> > > > +1 > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > >>> my > >> > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is > >> > raising. > >> > > > > But I > >> > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the > >> Java > >> > > > > version > >> > > > > > > is a > >> > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this > >> > discussion > >> > > > > > > thread). > >> > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in > >> the > >> > > > > community > >> > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who > >> do > >> > not > >> > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That > said, > >> > > > > deprecating > >> > > > > > > Java > >> > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped > in > >> > 1.16. > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> Best, > >> > > > > > > >>> Matthias > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek < > >> > d...@apache.org> > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This > will > >> > > > generate > >> > > > > bit > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > >>> a > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep > moving > >> > the > >> > > > > project > >> > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this. > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong: > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because > >> his > >> > > > > application > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after > all, > >> > many > >> > > > > systems > >> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and > >> Hive) > >> > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness, > >> that > >> > this > >> > > > > will > >> > > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps > to > >> > address > >> > > > > this > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd > >> still > >> > keep > >> > > > > Java 8 > >> > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to > >> > upgrade, > >> > > > > but > >> > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same > >> argument > >> > > > later > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > > >>> time. > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for > both > >> > HBase > >> > > > > [1] > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed, > so > >> > the > >> > > > > ball is > >> > > > > > > on > >> > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity. > >> > > > Generating > >> > > > > bit > >> > > > > > > >>> more > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing. > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and > >> learn > >> > bit > >> > > > > more > >> > > > > > > >>> about > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink > >> > > > > developments or > >> > > > > > > >>> are > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more > >> > time for > >> > > > > > > >>>> eventual > >> > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)? > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972 > >> > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415 > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> Best, > >> > > > > > > >>>> D. > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li < > >> > > > > jingsongl...@gmail.com> > >> > > > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay, > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion. > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of > >> Flink > >> > > > > users. At > >> > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version. > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because > >> his > >> > > > > > > application > >> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after > all, > >> > many > >> > > > > systems > >> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and > >> Hive) > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support > for > >> > Java 8. > >> > > > > We > >> > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time. > >> > > > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk < > >> > i...@ververica.com > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi, > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay > already > >> > said. > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> > >> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser < > >> > > > > > > >>> mart...@ververica.com> > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Marios > >> > > > > >
