Vlad, I apologize for using the term 'half-baked' in a way that could seem a description of HBASE-7912. I meant that as a general hypothetical.
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Vladimir Rodionov <vladrodio...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm not sure that "There is already lots of half-baked code in the > branch, > so what's the harm in adding more?" > > I meant - not production - ready yet. This is 2.0 development branch and, > hence many features are in works, > not being tested well etc. I do not consider backup as half baked feature - > it has passed our internal QA and has very good doc, which we will provide > to Apache shortly. > > -Vlad > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:13 AM, Andrew Purtell <apurt...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > We shouldn't admit half baked changes that won't be finished. However in > > this case the crew working on this feature are long timers and less > likely > > than just about anyone to leave something in a half baked state. Of > course > > there is no guarantee how anything will turn out, but I am willing to > take > > a little on faith if they feel their best path forward now is to merge to > > trunk. I only wish I had bandwidth to have done some real kicking of the > > tires by now. Maybe this week. > > > > (Yes, I'm using some of that time for this email :-) but I type fast.) > > > > That said, I would like to agitate for making 2.0 more real and spend > some > > time on it now that I'm winding down with 0.98. I think that means > > branching for 2.0 real soon now and even evicting things from 2.0 branch > > that aren't finished or stable, leaving them only once again in the > master > > branch. Or, maybe just evicting them. Let's take it case by case. > > > > I think this feature can come in relatively safely. As added insurance, > > let's admit the possibility it could be reverted on the 2.0 branch if > folks > > working on stabilizing 2.0 decide to evict it because it is unfinished or > > unstable, because that certainly can happen. I would expect if talk like > > that starts, we'd get help finishing or stabilizing what's under > discussion > > for revert. Or, we'd have a revert. Either way the outcome is acceptable. > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Dima Spivak <dimaspi...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure that "There is already lots of half-baked code in the > > branch, > > > so what's the harm in adding more?" is a good code commit philosophy > for > > a > > > fault-tolerant distributed data store. ;) > > > > > > More seriously, a lack of test coverage for existing features shouldn't > > be > > > used as justification for introducing new features with the same > > > shortcomings. Ultimately, it's the end user who will feel the pain, so > > > shouldn't we do everything we can to mitigate that? > > > > > > -Dima > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Vladimir Rodionov < > > vladrodio...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Sean, > > > > > > > > * have docs > > > > > > > > Agree. We have a doc and backup is the most documented feature :), we > > > will > > > > release it shortly to Apache. > > > > > > > > * have sunny-day correctness tests > > > > > > > > Feature has close to 60 test cases, which run for approx 30 min. We > > can > > > > add more, if community do not mind :) > > > > > > > > * have correctness-in-face-of-failure tests > > > > > > > > Any examples of these tests in existing features? In works, we have a > > > clear > > > > understanding of what should be done by the time of 2.0 release. > > > > That is very close goal for us, to verify IT monkey for existing > code. > > > > > > > > * don't rely on things outside of HBase for normal operation (okay > for > > > > advanced operation) > > > > > > > > We do not. > > > > > > > > Enormous time has been spent already on the development and testing > the > > > > feature, it has passed our internal tests and many rounds of code > > reviews > > > > by HBase committers. We do not mind if someone from HBase community > > > > (outside of HW) will review the code, but it will probably takes > > forever > > > to > > > > wait for volunteer?, the feature is quite large (1MB+ cumulative > patch) > > > > > > > > 2.0 branch is full of half baked features, most of them are in active > > > > development, therefore I am not following you here, Sean? Why > > HBASE-7912 > > > is > > > > not good enough yet to be integrated into 2.0 branch? > > > > > > > > -Vlad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:23 AM, Sean Busbey <bus...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Josh Elser <josh.el...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > So, the answer to Sean's original question is "as robust as > > snapshots > > > > > > presently are"? (independence of backup/restore failure tolerance > > > from > > > > > > snapshot failure tolerance) > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this just a question WRT context of the change, or is it means > > > for a > > > > > veto > > > > > > from you, Sean? Just trying to make sure I'm following along > > > > adequately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd say ATM I'm -0, bordering on -1 but not for reasons I can > > > articulate > > > > > well. > > > > > > > > > > Here's an attempt. > > > > > > > > > > We've been trying to move, as a community, towards minimizing risk > to > > > > > downstream folks by getting "complete enough for use" gates in > place > > > > > before we introduce new features. This was spurred by a some > features > > > > > getting in half-baked and never making it to "can really use" > status > > > > > (I'm thinking of distributed log replay and the zk-less assignment > > > > > stuff, I don't recall if there was more). > > > > > > > > > > The gates, generally, included things like: > > > > > > > > > > * have docs > > > > > * have sunny-day correctness tests > > > > > * have correctness-in-face-of-failure tests > > > > > * don't rely on things outside of HBase for normal operation (okay > > for > > > > > advanced operation) > > > > > > > > > > As an example, we kept the MOB work off in a branch and out of > master > > > > > until it could pass these criteria. The big exemption we've had to > > > > > this was the hbase-spark integration, where we all agreed it could > > > > > land in master because it was very well isolated (the slide away > from > > > > > including docs as a first-class part of building up that > integration > > > > > has led me to doubt the wisdom of this decision). > > > > > > > > > > We've also been treating inclusion in a "probably will be released > to > > > > > downstream" branches as a higher bar, requiring > > > > > > > > > > * don't moderately impact performance when the feature isn't in use > > > > > * don't severely impact performance when the feature is in use > > > > > * either default-to-on or show enough demand to believe a > non-trivial > > > > > number of folks will turn the feature on > > > > > > > > > > The above has kept MOB and hbase-spark integration out of branch-1, > > > > > presumably while they've "gotten more stable" in master from the > odd > > > > > vendor inclusion. > > > > > > > > > > Are we going to have a 2.0 release before the end of the year? > We're > > > > > coming up on 1.5 years since the release of version 1.0; seems like > > > > > it's about time, though I haven't seen any concrete plans this > year. > > > > > Presuming we are going to have one by the end of the year, it > seems a > > > > > bit close to still be adding in "features that need maturing" on > the > > > > > branch. > > > > > > > > > > The lack of a concrete plan for 2.0 keeps me from considering these > > > > > things blocker at the moment. But I know first hand how much > trouble > > > > > folks have had with other features that have gone into downstream > > > > > facing releases without robustness checks (i.e. replication), and > I'm > > > > > concerned about what we're setting up if 2.0 goes out with this > > > > > feature in its current state. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > > > - Andy > > > > Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein > > (via Tom White) > > > -- Best regards, - Andy Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein (via Tom White)
