We do have a big JIRA for making sensor recording to be sufficient. But it is a bit hard to try to reduce the num.system clock calls in general (but admittedly, in nowadays OS they are supposed to be very cheap as well), I've just recently merged a small PR trying to make less SystemTime.currentMilliseconds calls whenever possible, but it is hard to enforce that for all callers.
Guozhang On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 9:46 AM John Roesler <vvcep...@apache.org> wrote: > FWIW, I’d be fine with TRACE, if it makes the processor-level metrics more > palatable to everyone. > > Ultimately, I think this is just kicking the can down the road, and we > should really just refactor our sensors/metrics to be lower overhead. But > that’s too much work to consider right before the release so for now, we > can kick that can just a little farther. > > Thanks for proposing a solution, Guozhang! > > -John > > On Sat, May 16, 2020, at 11:39, Guozhang Wang wrote: > > Cool, that's good points -- we should not let our current metrics > proposal > > to depend on future roadmaps, since they can still be removed later if > ever > > becoming not valuable after all. > > > > On the other hand, what do you think about introducing TRACE level > metrics > > recording and make the the processor-node level metrics on TRACE? > > > > Guozhang > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 7:42 PM Sophie Blee-Goldman <sop...@confluent.io > > > > wrote: > > > > > Yeah, I had proposed to replace the "source + sink" task-level metric > > > with "sink only" task-level metrics plus the stateful node-level ones. > > > > > > I completely agree that this proposal should and would look different > > > once we complete those two proposals, ie decouple caching and > > > consolidate suppression. But as it is right now, caching and > suppression > > > cause the actual time-of-processing of records to vary greatly > throughout > > > a subtopology such that the delta between a source node and an > intermediate > > > one is potentially quite large. > > > > > > For this exact reason I would argue that this metric is still valuable > at > > > the node-level > > > even if the "current time" is actually only updated once for a task. > > > Obviously this > > > would not convey any information about the actual processing latency, > but > > > as you > > > stated, this is likely to be a small delta on the scale of > milliseconds. > > > But the latency > > > due to a suppression can be on the order of minutes, hours, or even > days! > > > If > > > there is more than one suppression or caching in a subtopology, the > source > > > and sink > > > e2e latency could be wildly misrepresentative of the e2e latency of a > node > > > in the middle. > > > > > > Anyways, I removed this last point from the current KIP document > because I > > > felt > > > it was ultimately an implementation detail. But the larger point I > would > > > argue is that: > > > if we are truly worried about the performance hit of fetching the > system > > > time at every > > > node, we should just not fetch the system time at every node instead of > > > dropping the > > > metric altogether. It may be slightly off but only on the order of ms > and > > > not on the order > > > of hours, and it's still more useful than no metric at all > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 6:40 PM Guozhang Wang <wangg...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Sophie, > > > > > > > > I think your motivation makes sense, in fact before KIP-444 we used > to > > > have > > > > processor-node-level process latency as DEBUG which would > holistically > > > > address the motivation but we removed it since it is indeed quite > > > expensive > > > > (I do not have concrete numbers at hand, but basically you'd have to > call > > > > system-wall-clock time a couple of time for each record, each > processor > > > > node), and in the long run I feel such scenarios would be less > common if > > > we > > > > 1) decouple caching from emitting and 2) always put suppression right > > > > before sink only, and that's also why I've proposed to remove them in > > > > KIP-444. > > > > > > > > I missed an update in your wiki that right now you've updated the > > > > task-level metric to be recorded at the sink node, and thought it is > > > still > > > > at the source node, but assuming it is still the case, then > practically > > > any > > > > state store's staleness of the task could roughly be measured as that > > > > task-level staleness plus a small delta (usually tens of mills), and > the > > > > down stream task B's staleness - up stream task A's staleness would > > > capture > > > > the suppression effect at the end of A plus the intermediate topic > > > > producing -> consuming latency, which usually would not require to be > > > > distinguished. > > > > > > > > > > > > Guozhang > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 6:09 PM Sophie Blee-Goldman < > sop...@confluent.io > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey Guozhang, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the response. I meant to ask this earlier and forgot, > but do > > > > you > > > > > have any data or benchmarking results on hand for the performance > hit > > > we > > > > > took due to the metrics? Or maybe better yet, on the performance we > > > > gained > > > > > back by dropping some metrics? I think it would help us to better > > > > > understand > > > > > the tradeoffs with some concrete numbers to compare. > > > > > > > > > > I guess I'm inclined to want to include these metrics at the > operator > > > > level > > > > > on > > > > > DEBUG since, in my mind, that's exactly what DEBUG is for: > performance- > > > > > focused users will presumably run at INFO level and even those who > do > > > > > use DEBUG may only do so temporarily, when they actually have > something > > > > > to debug. > > > > > > > > > > Of course, I'm not running a Streams app myself so all this is just > > > > > conjecture. > > > > > But it seems reasonable to interpret the two metrics levels as > "minimal > > > > > useful > > > > > information" and "all information that provides insight into the > > > system" > > > > > > > > > > If we can agree there, the question becomes "does this provide any > > > > > additional > > > > > insight?" I would still argue that it does. To give a concrete > example, > > > > > let's say > > > > > the user has a basic > > > > > > > > > > SOURCE -> TRANSFORM -> AGGREGATE -> SUPPRESSION -> SINK > > > > > > > > > > subtopology, the application performing IQ on the transformer's > state. > > > > The > > > > > user > > > > > wants to know how long it's taking records to be reflected in the > > > results > > > > > of a query. > > > > > With only task-level metrics, they can only guess based on the e2e > > > > latency > > > > > of the > > > > > previous task and of this one. But neither of those is a good > > > > > representation of the > > > > > time it will take a record to be processed by the transformer: the > > > > previous > > > > > task's > > > > > latency will not include the time for the record to go through the > > > > > repartitioning, > > > > > and the current task's latency is measured after a suppression. The > > > > > suppression > > > > > itself will introduce significant latency and doesn't provide an > > > accurate > > > > > estimate. > > > > > Caching would also do what it does best, messing with our > understanding > > > > of > > > > > time :) > > > > > > > > > > It also means you can't measure the consumption latency, so there > would > > > > be > > > > > no way to tell if the e2e latency is so high because the very first > > > > > subtopology is > > > > > extremely slow, or the record was severely delayed in reaching the > > > input > > > > > topic. > > > > > I guess my earlier proposal to include both source and sink metrics > > > could > > > > > address this issue, but it seems to solve the problem more > holistically > > > > -- > > > > > and for > > > > > more complex subtopologies -- by including metrics at the processor > > > level > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 5:44 PM Guozhang Wang <wangg...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to make a final fight on processor-node-level metrics :) > Post > > > > > > KIP-444 we've actually removed a lot of node-level metrics since > it > > > is > > > > > too > > > > > > expensive to record at that level and their values are not proven > > > worth > > > > > it. > > > > > > Again I'd use the "we have to either enable all or none of DEBUG > > > > metrics" > > > > > > card, e.g. if we want to look into per-task process-latency > which is > > > > > DEBUG, > > > > > > we'd have to record all process-node / state-store / cache level > > > > metrics. > > > > > > On the other hand, within a task we usually do not have a lot of > > > > stateful > > > > > > operator nodes and if we want to find if certain stateful nodes > are > > > the > > > > > > bottleneck of process latency, that is usually discoverable from > the > > > > > > state-store level read / write latencies already. So I'd imagine > that > > > > > > suppose there's a sub-topology with multiple state stores in it, > if > > > we > > > > > > found the task-level process latency is high, we can still tell > which > > > > > state > > > > > > stores within it is the main bottleneck from the state store > read / > > > > write > > > > > > latency (I'm assuming the IO latency is always dominant compared > with > > > > > > others). > > > > > > > > > > > > Guozhang > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:22 PM Sophie Blee-Goldman < > > > > sop...@confluent.io > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Matthias > > > > > > > > And that's what he says about the 95th percentile! Imagine > what > > > he > > > > > > would > > > > > > > say about the 50th :P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should have kept watching another 10 minutes. He gets around > to > > > > > > covering > > > > > > > the 50th, and let's > > > > > > > just say he is not a fan: https://youtu.be/lJ8ydIuPFeU?t=786 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 3:15 PM John Roesler < > vvcep...@apache.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Sophie! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this makes perfect sense. It will be much more > intuitive > > > to > > > > > use > > > > > > > > the metric for the stated motivation this way. I’d be in > favor > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > proposal after this update. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for taking this on, > > > > > > > > -John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020, at 17:07, Sophie Blee-Goldman wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to clarify/modify one aspect of this KIP, which > is to > > > > > record > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > staleness > > > > > > > > > at the *completion* of the record's processing by the > > > > operator/task > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > question, > > > > > > > > > rather than on the intake. The task-level metrics will be > > > > recorded > > > > > at > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > sink > > > > > > > > > node instead of at the source, and the operator-level > metrics > > > > will > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > recorded > > > > > > > > > at the end of the operation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The stated purpose and intended usefulness of this KIP is > to > > > give > > > > > > > users a > > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > to gauge roughly how long it takes for a record to be > reflected > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > "results", > > > > > > > > > whether these results are being read from an output topic > or > > > > > through > > > > > > > IQ. > > > > > > > > To > > > > > > > > > take the IQ example, the results of a record are obviously > not > > > > > > visible > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > *after* that node has finished processing it. The > staleness, > > > > while > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > potentially > > > > > > > > > useful as it can impact the *way* a record is processed in > a > > > > > stateful > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > time- > > > > > > > > > dependent operator, is not part of the problem this KIP > > > > > specifically > > > > > > > set > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > to solve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In light of this I think it's appropriate to revert the > name > > > > change > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > include > > > > > > > > > latency, since "staleness" as described above only makes > sense > > > > when > > > > > > > > > measuring > > > > > > > > > relative to the arrival of a record at a task/node. I'd > propose > > > > to > > > > > > save > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > "staleness" for that particular meaning, and adopt > Matthias's > > > > > > > suggestion > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > "record-e2e-latency" for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for hanging in there all. Please let me know if you > have > > > > any > > > > > > > > > concerns about > > > > > > > > > this change! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sophie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:25 PM Matthias J. Sax < > > > > mj...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am also happy with max/min/99/90. And I buy your naming > > > > > argument > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > staleness vs latency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Matthias > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/15/20 12:24 PM, Boyang Chen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Sophie, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 90/99/min/max make sense to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:20 PM Sophie Blee-Goldman < > > > > > > > > > > sop...@confluent.io> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> @Matthias > > > > > > > > > > >> Regarding tracking the 50th percentile, I'll refer > you to > > > > the > > > > > > 4:53 > > > > > > > > mark > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> the video > > > > > > > > > > >> *you* linked: https://youtu.be/lJ8ydIuPFeU?t=293 > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> And that's what he says about the 95th percentile! > Imagine > > > > > what > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > >> say about > > > > > > > > > > >> the 50th :P > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> But seriously, since we can't seem to agree that the > mean > > > or > > > > > > 50th > > > > > > > > > > >> percentile is actually > > > > > > > > > > >> useful I'm inclined to resurrect my original proposal, > > > > > neither. > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > > >> that's a good > > > > > > > > > > >> argument against the 75th, which I admittedly chose > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > > > arbitrarily as > > > > > > > > > > >> an > > > > > > > > > > >> intermediate between the 50th and the higher > percentiles. > > > > How > > > > > > > about: > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> -max > > > > > > > > > > >> -p99 > > > > > > > > > > >> -p90 > > > > > > > > > > >> -min > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> with p50/mean still up for debate if anyone feels > strongly > > > > for > > > > > > > > either of > > > > > > > > > > >> them. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Regarding the name, I've already flip-flopped on this > so > > > I'm > > > > > > > > definitely > > > > > > > > > > >> still open to > > > > > > > > > > >> further arguments. But the reason for changing it from > > > > > > > > > > end-to-end-latency > > > > > > > > > > >> (which > > > > > > > > > > >> is similar to what you propose) is that this metric > > > > > technically > > > > > > > > reflects > > > > > > > > > > >> how old (ie how "stale") > > > > > > > > > > >> the record is when it's *received* by the operator, > not > > > when > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > processed > > > > > > > > > > >> by the operator. > > > > > > > > > > >> It seemed like there was the potential for confusion > that > > > > > > > > > > >> "end-to-end-latency" might > > > > > > > > > > >> represent the latency from the event creation to the > time > > > > the > > > > > > > > processor > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > >> done > > > > > > > > > > >> processing it. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> @John > > > > > > > > > > >> I'd rather err on the side of "not-enough" metrics as > we > > > can > > > > > > > always > > > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > > > >> this to the > > > > > > > > > > >> stateless metrics later on. If we decide to measure > the > > > time > > > > > at > > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > > node > > > > > > > > > > >> and don't > > > > > > > > > > >> find any evidence of a serious performance impact, and > > > users > > > > > > > > indicate > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > >> would > > > > > > > > > > >> like to see this metric at all nodes, then we can > easily > > > > start > > > > > > > > reporting > > > > > > > > > > >> them as well. > > > > > > > > > > >> WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> That said, sink nodes seem like a reasonable > exception to > > > > the > > > > > > > rule. > > > > > > > > > > >> Obviously users > > > > > > > > > > >> should be able to detect the time when the record > reaches > > > > the > > > > > > > output > > > > > > > > > > topic > > > > > > > > > > >> but that > > > > > > > > > > >> still leaves a gap in understanding how long the > > > production > > > > > > > latency > > > > > > > > was. > > > > > > > > > > >> This mirrors > > > > > > > > > > >> the consumption latency that is exposed by the > task-level > > > > > > metrics, > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > >> are measured > > > > > > > > > > >> at the source node. For good symmetry what if we > actually > > > > > expose > > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> source > > > > > > > > > > >> and sink latency at the task-level? ie report both > sets of > > > > > > > > statistical > > > > > > > > > > >> measurements with > > > > > > > > > > >> the additional tag -source/-sink > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> @Bill > > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks for the comment about regarding the min! I > hadn't > > > > > > > considered > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >> and it's > > > > > > > > > > >> quite useful to think about how and what is useful > from a > > > > > users > > > > > > > > point of > > > > > > > > > > >> view. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Regarding your second. point, I'm inclined to leave > that > > > as > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > >> implementation detail > > > > > > > > > > >> but my take would be that the user should be allowed > to > > > > > control > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > record > > > > > > > > > > >> timestamp > > > > > > > > > > >> used for this with the timestamp extractor. My > impression > > > is > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > >> often embed > > > > > > > > > > >> the actual event time in the payload for whatever > reason, > > > > and > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > >> represents the "true" > > > > > > > > > > >> timestamp as far as the Streams topology is concerned. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:05 AM Bill Bejeck < > > > > > bbej...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> Thanks for the KIP, Sophie, this will be a useful > metric > > > to > > > > > > add. > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> Regarding tracking min, I think it could be > valuable for > > > > > users > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >> discern > > > > > > > > > > >>> which part of their topologies are more efficient > since > > > > this > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > > >>> task-level metric. I realize everyone seems to be on > > > board > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > >> including > > > > > > > > > > >>> min anyway, but I wanted to add my 2 cents on this > topic > > > > > should > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > decide > > > > > > > > > > >>> to revisit adding min or not. > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> I do have a question regarding the calculation of > > > > staleness. > > > > > > > > > > >>> Is there going to be a consideration for timestamp > > > > > extractors? > > > > > > > > Users > > > > > > > > > > >> could > > > > > > > > > > >>> prefer to use a timestamp embedded in the payload, > and it > > > > > could > > > > > > > > skew > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>> measurements. > > > > > > > > > > >>> I was wondering if we should specify in the KIP if > > > setting > > > > > the > > > > > > > > arrival > > > > > > > > > > >> time > > > > > > > > > > >>> is always going to come from the record timestamp, > or is > > > > this > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > >>> implementation detail we can cover in the PR? > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > >>> Bill > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 1:11 AM Matthias J. Sax < > > > > > > > mj...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Thanks for the KIP Sophie. > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I think it's not useful to record the avg/mean; it > > > > sensitive > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >>>> outliers. We should rather track the median (50th > > > > > percentile). > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Not sure if tracking min is useful, but I am also > ok to > > > > > track > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> However, I find it odd to track 75th percentile. > > > Standard > > > > > > > measures > > > > > > > > > > >> would > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the 90th or 95th -- I guess we don't need both, so > maybe > > > > > > picking > > > > > > > > 90th > > > > > > > > > > >>>> might be more useful? > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> About the name: "staleness" wound really odd, and if > > > fact > > > > > the > > > > > > > > metric > > > > > > > > > > >>>> does capture "latency" so we should call it > "latency". I > > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>> issue that we already have a latency metric. So > maybe we > > > > > could > > > > > > > > call it > > > > > > > > > > >>>> `record-e2e-latency-*` ? > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> While I agree that we should include out-or-order > data > > > > (the > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > >>>> talk about `out-of-order` data, not `late` data; > data is > > > > > only > > > > > > > > `late` > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > >>>> it's out-of-order and if it's dropped), I don't > really > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the new metric would help to configure grace period > or > > > > > > retention > > > > > > > > time? > > > > > > > > > > >>>> As you mention in the KIP, both are define as max > > > > difference > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >>>> `event-time - stream-time` and thus the new metric > that > > > > > takes > > > > > > > > > > >>>> system-/wallclock-time into account does not seem to > > > help > > > > at > > > > > > > all. > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Btw: there is a great talk about "How NOT to Measure > > > > > Latency" > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > Gil > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Tene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ8ydIuPFeU > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -Matthias > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On 5/14/20 7:17 PM, John Roesler wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Sophie, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> It seems like there would still be plenty of use > cases > > > > for > > > > > > > > recording > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> this metric at all processors and not just stateful > > > ones, > > > > > but > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > > > >> happy > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> to suspend my arguments for now. Since you're > proposing > > > > to > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> them at the processor-node level, it will be > seamless > > > > later > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > add > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> in the stateless processors if we want. As a wise > man > > > > once > > > > > > > said, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> "Adding is always easier than removing." > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Regarding the time measurement, it's an > implementation > > > > > detail > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> we don't need to consider in the KIP. > Nevertheless, I'd > > > > > > greatly > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> prefer to measure the system time again when > recording > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> metric. I don't think we've seen any evidence that > > > proves > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> would harm performance, and the amount of > inaccuracy > > > > using > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> the cached system time could incur is actually > > > > substantial. > > > > > > > But, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> if you want to just "not mention this" in the KIP, > we > > > can > > > > > > defer > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> the actual PR discussion, at which time we're in a > > > better > > > > > > > > position > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> to use benchmarks, etc., to make the call. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Along the lines of the measurement accuracy > discussion, > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> minor thought I had is that maybe we should > consider > > > > > > measuring > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> the task staleness metric at the sink, rather than > the > > > > > > source, > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > >> that > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> it includes the processing latency of the task > itself, > > > > not > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>> latency > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> of everything up to, but not including, the task > (which > > > > > seems > > > > > > > > > > >> confusing > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> for users). I guess this could also be an > > > implementation > > > > > > > detail, > > > > > > > > > > >>> though. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for the update, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> -John > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2020, at 13:31, Sophie Blee-Goldman > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Hey all, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> After discussing with Bruno I'd like to propose a > > > small > > > > > > > > amendment, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> which is to record the processor-node-level > metrics > > > only > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > >>> *stateful* > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> *operators*. They would still be considered a > > > > > > > > "processor-node-level" > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> metric and not a "state-store-level" metric as the > > > > > staleness > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > >> still > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> a property of the node rather than of the state > > > itself. > > > > > > > > However, it > > > > > > > > > > >>>> seems > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> that this information is primarily useful for > stateful > > > > > > > operators > > > > > > > > > > >> that > > > > > > > > > > >>>> might > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> be exposing state via IQ or otherwise dependent > on the > > > > > > record > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> unlike a stateless operator. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> It's worth calling out that recent performance > > > > > improvements > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>> metrics > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> framework mean that we no longer fetch the system > time > > > > at > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> operator > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> level, but only once per task. In other words the > > > system > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > > > >>>> updated > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> between each process as a record flows through the > > > > > > > subtopology, > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> debugging the processor-level latency via the > > > > stateleness > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > >> be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> possible.Note that this doesn't mean the > > > operator-level > > > > > > > metrics > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >>> not > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> *useful* relative to the task-level metric. > Upstream > > > > > caching > > > > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> suppression > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> can still cause a record's staleness at some > > > downstream > > > > > > > stateful > > > > > > > > > > >>>> operator > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> to deviate from the task-level staleness > (recorded at > > > > the > > > > > > > source > > > > > > > > > > >>> node). > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Please let me know if you have any concerns about > this > > > > > > change. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> KIP has been updated with the new proposal > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 3:04 AM Bruno Cadonna < > > > > > > > > br...@confluent.io> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Hi Sophie, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Thank you for the KIP. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> The KIP looks good to me. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> 50th percentile: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I think we do not need it now. If we need it, we > can > > > > add > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > Here > > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> old truism applies: Adding is always easier than > > > > > removing. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> processor-node-level metrics: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I think it is good to have the staleness metrics > also > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> processor-node-level. If we do not want to record > > > them > > > > on > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> processor nodes, you could restrict the > recording to > > > > > > stateful > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> processor-nodes, since those are the ones that > would > > > > > > benefit > > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > > > >>> from > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the staleness metrics. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Best, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bruno > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 4:15 AM Sophie > Blee-Goldman < > > > > > > > > > > >>>> sop...@confluent.io> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Yeah, the specific reason was just to align > with the > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > >>> metrics. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Is it better to conform than to be right? > History > > > has > > > > a > > > > > > lot > > > > > > > > to say > > > > > > > > > > >>> on > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> that > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> matter > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> but I'm not sure how much of it applies to the > fine > > > > > > details > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >>> metrics > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> naming :P > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> More seriously, I figured if people are looking > at > > > > this > > > > > > > metric > > > > > > > > > > >>> they're > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> likely to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> be looking at all the others. Then naming this > one > > > > > "-mean" > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > >>>> probably > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> lead some to conclude that the "-avg" suffix in > the > > > > > other > > > > > > > > metrics > > > > > > > > > > >>> has > > > > > > > > > > >>>> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> different meaning. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> As for the percentiles, I actually like p99 (and > > > p75) > > > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > I'll > > > > > > > > > > >>>> swap > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> that out > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 7:07 PM John Roesler < > > > > > > > > vvcep...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks Sophie, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I hope this isn't too nit-picky, but is there a > > > > reason > > > > > to > > > > > > > > choose > > > > > > > > > > >>>> "avg" > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> instead > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of "mean"? Maybe this is too paranoid, and I > might > > > be > > > > > > > > > > >> oversensitive > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> because > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of the mistake I just made earlier, but it > strikes > > > me > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > "avg" > > > > > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> actually > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ambiguous, as it refers to a family of > statistics, > > > > > > whereas > > > > > > > > "mean" > > > > > > > > > > >>> is > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> specific. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I see other Kafka metrics with "avg", but none > with > > > > > > "mean"; > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > >>> that > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> reason? If so, I'm +1. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Regarding the names of the percentile, I > actually > > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > > >>> _any_ > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> other > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> metrics that use percentile. Was there a > reason to > > > > > choose > > > > > > > > "99th" > > > > > > > > > > >> as > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> opposed > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> to "p99" or any other scheme? This is not a > > > > criticism, > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> primarily > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> asking > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> for consistency's sake. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Thanks again, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> -John > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020, at 19:19, Sophie > Blee-Goldman > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Alright, I can get behind adding the min > metric > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > > > sake of > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> pretty > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> graphs > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> (and trivial computation). > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I'm still on the fence regarding the mean (or > 50th > > > > > > > > percentile) > > > > > > > > > > >>> but I > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> can > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> see > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> how users might expect it and find it a bit > > > > > disorienting > > > > > > > > not to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> have. So > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> updated proposed metrics are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> - record-staleness-max [ms] > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> - record-staleness-99th [ms] *(99th > > > percentile)* > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> - record-staleness-75th [ms] *(75th > > > percentile)* > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> - record-staleness-avg [ms] *(mean)* > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> - record-staleness-min [ms] > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 4:42 PM John Roesler < > > > > > > > > > > >> vvcep...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Oh boy, I never miss an opportunity to > embarrass > > > > > > myself. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > >> guess > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> mean > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> seems more interesting to me than the > median, but > > > > > > neither > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >> as > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> interesting as the higher percentiles (99th > and > > > > max). > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Min isn’t really important for any SLAs, but > it > > > > does > > > > > > > round > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > >>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> mental > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> picture of the distribution. I’ve always > graphed > > > > min > > > > > > > along > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > >>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> other > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> metrics to help me understand how fast the > system > > > > can > > > > > > be, > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> helps > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> in > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> optimization decisions. It’s also a > relatively > > > > > > > inexpensive > > > > > > > > > > >> metric > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> compute, so it might be nice to just throw > it in. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020, at 18:18, Sophie > > > Blee-Goldman > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> G1: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I was considering it as the "end-to-end > latency > > > > *up* > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> specific > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> task" > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> but > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm happy with "record-staleness" if that > drives > > > > the > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > > >> home > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> better. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> So > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> it's the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> "staleness of the record when it is > received by > > > > that > > > > > > > > task" -- > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> will > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> update > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the KIP > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> B1/J: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm struggling to imagine a case where the > min > > > > would > > > > > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > > >> be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> useful, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> rather than > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> just intellectually interesting. I don't > feel > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > > that we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> shouldn't > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> add it, but that's > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> why I didn't include it from the start. Can > you > > > > > > > enlighten > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> with an > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> example? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I was also vaguely concerned about the > overhead > > > of > > > > > > > adding > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> multiple > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> percentile > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> metrics. Do we have any data to indicate > what > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >>> performance > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> hit we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> take on > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> metrics computation? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, not to be too pedantic but the 50th > > > > percentile > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > >>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> median > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> not the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> mean. Would you propose to add the mean > *and* > > > the > > > > > 50th > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> percentile, or > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> just > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> one > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> of the two? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks all! > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sophie > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:34 PM John > Roesler < > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> vvcep...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all, and thanks for the KIP, Sophie, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just some comments on the discussion so > far: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> B2/G1: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> In principle, it shouldn't matter whether > we > > > > report > > > > > > > > "spans" > > > > > > > > > > >> or > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> "end-to-end" latency. But in practice, > some of > > > > the > > > > > > > spans > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> pretty > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to really measure (like time > spent > > > > > waiting > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> topics, or > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> time from the event happening to the ETL > > > producer > > > > > > > > choosing to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> send > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> it, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or time spent in send/receive buffers, > etc., > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, it's practically easier to > > > > compute > > > > > > > spans > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> subtracting > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> e2e latencies than it is to compute e2e > > > latencies > > > > > by > > > > > > > > adding > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> spans. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> You > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> can even just consider that the span > > > computation > > > > > from > > > > > > > e2e > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> always > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> just > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> involves subtracting two numbers, whereas > > > > computing > > > > > > e2e > > > > > > > > > > >> latency > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> from > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> spans involves adding _all_ the spans > leading > > > up > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > end > > > > > > > > > > >> you > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> care > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> about. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like people really prefer to have > > > spans > > > > > when > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > >> are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> debugging > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> latency problems, whereas e2e latency is a > more > > > > > > general > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> measurement > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that basically every person/application > cares > > > > about > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >> should > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> monitoring. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Altogether, it really seem to provide more > > > value > > > > to > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> people if > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> report > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> e2e latencies. Regarding > "record-staleness" as > > > a > > > > > > name, > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > >> think > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> I > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> have > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> no > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> preference, I'd defer to other peoples' > > > > intuition. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> G2: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the processor-node metric is nice, > > > since > > > > > the > > > > > > > > inside > > > > > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> task > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> can > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> introduce a significant amount of latency > in > > > some > > > > > > > cases. > > > > > > > > > > >> Plus, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> it's a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> more > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> direct measurement, if you really wanted to > > > know > > > > > (for > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> purposes > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> IQ > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> or something) how long it takes source > events > > > to > > > > > > "show > > > > > > > > up" at > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> store. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think actually recording it at every > > > processor > > > > > > could > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> expensive, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> but we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> already record a bunch of metrics at the > node > > > > > level. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> B1: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think 50% could be reasonable to record > also. > > > > > Even > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > >> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> poor > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> metric > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> for operational purposes, a lot of people > might > > > > > > expect > > > > > > > > to see > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> "mean". > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was surprised not to see "min". Is there > a > > > > reason > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > leave > > > > > > > > > > >> it > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> off? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I might suggest: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> min, mean (50th), 75th, 99th, max > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> B3: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree we should include late records > (though > > > > not > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> drop). > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It may be spiky, but only when there are > > > > > legitimately > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> records > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> with a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> high end-to-end latency, which is the whole > > > point > > > > > of > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> metrics. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> That's it! I don't think I have any other > > > > feedback, > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > >> than > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> request to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> also report "min". > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> -John > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020, at 16:58, Guozhang > Wang > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Sophie for the KIP, a few quick > > > thoughts: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) The end-to-end latency includes both > the > > > > > > processing > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> latency > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> task > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the latency spent sitting in > intermediate > > > > > > topics. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> similar > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feeling as Boyang mentioned above that the > > > > latency > > > > > > > > metric of > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> task A > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually measures the latency of the > > > > sub-topology > > > > > > > up-to > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> not > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> including > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the processing of A, which is a bit weird. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the my feeling comes from the name > > > > "latency" > > > > > > > > itself, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> since > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> today we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> already have several "latency" metrics > already > > > > > which > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> measuring > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> elapsed > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system-time for processing a record / etc, > > > while > > > > > > here > > > > > > > > we are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> comparing > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system wallclock time with the record > > > timestamp. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we can consider renaming it as > > > > > > > "record-staleness" > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> (note we > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> already > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a "record-lateness" metric), in which > > > case > > > > > > > > recording at > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system-time before we start processing the > > > > record > > > > > > > sounds > > > > > > > > > > >> more > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> natural. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) With that in mind, I'm wondering if the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> processor-node-level > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> DEBUG > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> metric is worth to add, given that we > already > > > > > have a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> task-level > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> processing > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> latency metric. Basically, a specific > node's > > > e2e > > > > > > > > latency is > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> similar > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> task-level e2e latency + task-level > processing > > > > > > > latency. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Personally I > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> think > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> having a task-level record-staleness > metric is > > > > > > > > sufficient. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guozhang > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 11:46 AM Sophie > > > > > > Blee-Goldman < > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sop...@confluent.io> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I felt that 50% was not a particularly > > > > useful > > > > > > > gauge > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> this > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> specific > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metric, as > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's presumably most useful at putting an > > > > *upper > > > > > > > > *bound on > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> latency > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonably expect to see. I chose > percentiles > > > > > that > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> hopefully > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> give a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of what *most* records will > experience, > > > > and > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> *close > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> all* > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> records > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However I'm not married to these specific > > > > numbers > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> could be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would be especially interested in hearing > > > from > > > > > > users > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> this. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. I'm inclined to not include the > > > "hop-to-hop > > > > > > > > latency" in > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> this KIP > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> since > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can always compute it themselves by > > > subtracting > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> previous > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> node's > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end-to-end latency. I guess we could do > it > > > > either > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> you can > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> always > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compute one from the other, but I think > the > > > > > > > end-to-end > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> latency > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> feels > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> more > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> valuable as it's main motivation is not > to > > > > debug > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> bottlenecks > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> in the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topology but > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to give users a sense of how long it > takes > > > > > arecord > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> reflected > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain parts > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the topology. For example this might > be > > > > useful > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> who are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wondering > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roughly when a record that was just > produced > > > > will > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> included > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> in > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> their > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> IQ > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Debugging is just a nice side effect -- > but > > > > > maybe I > > > > > > > > didn't > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> make > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> that > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> clear > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the KIP's motivation. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Good question, I should address this > in > > > the > > > > > KIP. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> short > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> answer is > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes", > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we will include late records. I added a > > > > paragraph > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> end > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> of the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Proposed > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Changes section explaining the reasoning > > > here, > > > > > > please > > > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> me > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> know > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> if > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> you > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any concerns. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Assuming you're referring to the > existing > > > > > metric > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> "process-latency", > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metric > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reflects the time for the literal > > > Node#process > > > > > > method > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> run > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> whereas > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metric > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would always be measured relative to the > > > event > > > > > > > > timestamp. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That said, the naming collision there is > > > pretty > > > > > > > > confusing > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> so > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I've > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> renamed > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metrics in this KIP to > "end-to-end-latency" > > > > > which I > > > > > > > > feel > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> better > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reflects > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nature > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the metric anyway. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the feedback! > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 10:21 AM Boyang > Chen > > > < > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reluctanthero...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the KIP Sophie. Getting the > E2E > > > > > latency > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> important > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> for > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding the bottleneck of the > > > > application. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of questions and ideas: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Could you clarify the rational of > picking > > > > 75, > > > > > > 99 > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> max > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> percentiles? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Normally I see cases where we use 50, 90 > > > > > > percentile > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> well > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> in > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> production > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> systems. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. The current latency being computed is > > > > > > cumulative, > > > > > > > > I.E > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> if a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> record > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> goes > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through A -> B -> C, then P(C) = > T(B->C) + > > > > P(B) > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> T(B->C) + > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> T(A->B) + > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> T(A) > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and so on, where P() represents the > captured > > > > > > > latency, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> and T() > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> represents > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time for transiting the records > between > > > > two > > > > > > > nodes, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> including > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> processing > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. For monitoring purpose, maybe > having > > > > > T(B->C) > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> T(A->B) > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> more > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natural to view as "hop-to-hop latency", > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> there > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> is a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> spike in > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> T(A->B), both P(B) and P(C) are > affected in > > > > the > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> time. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> In the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> same > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit, the E2E latency is meaningful > only > > > > when > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> record > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> exits > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sink as this marks the whole time this > > > record > > > > > > spent > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> inside > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> funnel. Do > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think we could have separate > treatment > > > for > > > > > > sink > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> nodes and > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> other > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nodes, so that other nodes only count > the > > > time > > > > > > > > receiving > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> record > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> from > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last hop? I'm not proposing a solution > here, > > > > > just > > > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> discuss > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternative to see if it is reasonable. > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. As we are going to monitor late > arrival > > > > > records > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> well, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> they > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> would > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create some really spiky graphs when the > > > > > > > out-of-order > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> records are > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interleaving with on time records. > Should we > > > > > also > > > > > > > > supply > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> a > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> smooth > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> version > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the latency metrics, or user should > just > > > > take > > > > > > > care > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> it > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> by > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> themself? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Regarding this new metrics, we > haven't > > > > > > discussed > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> relation > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> with our > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing processing latency metrics, > could > > > you > > > > > add > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> context > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> on > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comparison and a simple `when to use > which` > > > > > > tutorial > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> the > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> best? > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Boyang > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 7:28 PM Sophie > > > > > > Blee-Goldman > > > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> sop...@confluent.io > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to kick off discussion on > KIP-613 > > > > > which > > > > > > > aims > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> to > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> add > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> end-to-end > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> latency metrics to Streams. Please > take a > > > > look: > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-613%3A+Add+end-to-end+latency+metrics+to+Streams > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sophie > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Guozhang > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- Guozhang > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- Guozhang > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Guozhang > > > -- -- Guozhang
