Francisco,
I agree with you that both reasonings are not antagonistic, as an
antagonistic reasoning in this case would be one that doesn't work.
And I believe it is clear now that the initial proposal shared on this
email thread does work, but it is not the only possibility. From the
beginning I said there are alternatives, but I wanted to start the
conversation from my point of view, sharing what I think is best. We
have to acknowledge, though, IMHO, that the discussions we had thus
far cannot be understood as clearly as what was initially laid out,
given the lack of details/analysis and a clear execution plan.
Let me elaborate on top of the 3-step plan you shared.
1)
No comment. This should be pretty simple to do.
2)
There is no global CI stream to be changed, we would have to create
one. And this has serious implications to our contribution model for
cross-repo PRs. As I described on the first email of this thread,
Category A repos are configured in several disjoint streams. Sending a
PR to `drools` and `kogito-runtimes` will work great, but sending a PR
to `drools` and `kogito-images`, or `drools` and `optaplanner` won't
verify that everything will continue working after the PRs are merged,
as our PR checks are not prepared to build this combination of repos
together. This is a problem, in my view, but I hardly contribute to
Category A repos, so I'm assuming things are working fine for those
who do. The proposal shared on the first email of this thread does not
change the contribution workflow for any repo of Apache KIE, and
everyone can continue contributing the way they're used to, except for
people contributing to the `kogito-swf-{builder,devmode}` images, and
to `kogito-serverless-operator`. On the other hand, having `kie-tools`
built in the middle of a new global CI stream, would span another
class of problem, which is very closely related to the third bullet
point of the plan you shared.
3)
Maven has a mechanism to achieve this pseudo-synchronicity between
multiple repositories. The mutable SNAPSHOT version, built nightly. It
is not perfect, though, as I'm sure many of us already experienced
pulling from the `main` branch of a single repo only to find out that
a PR ensemble had been merged a few moments prior, requiring us to
rebuild the entire stack, since our local SNAPSHOTs had become
out-of-date. That's what we used to have back in Business Central
(a.k.a. v7) days. Making a `git pull` on a single repo in this setup
potentially requires all repos to be pulled and rebuilt. I'm sure this
still happens sometimes when developing Category A projects.
NPM packages don't have mutable SNAPSHOTs. Every published NPM package
is immutable, and it is really cumbersome and error-prone to integrate
downstream repos with upstream NPM-bound repos, as not having a
lockfile brings all sorts of security and stability problems. That's
why monorepos became so popular in the JavaScript ecosystem. This lack
of a mutable SNAPSHOT mechanism makes depending on NPM artifacts
coming from `kie-tools` really hard. The way I see it, moving repos
downstream of `kie-tools` will require everyone to build `kie-tools`
anyway, potentially on a daily basis, since it would've then become
part of the stack that needs to be built before `kogito-images` and
`kogito-serverless-operator`. More than that, since there would be no
way to determine what subset of packages of `kie-tools` would need to
be built to satisfy downstream references, everyone would have to do a
full build, or handpick individual packages of the monorepo to build.
I hope I was able to offer more insight in the way I see things, along
with my take on using Maven SNAPSHOTs as the de-facto solution for a
poly-repo codebase. I don't think we can escape from the complexity of
our codebase and the nature of the technologies we use, only
accommodate it in the most comfortable place possible, if even there
is such a place :)
Now, there are some things I'd like to say regarding the initial
proposal shared on this email thread.
I understand you, and others, are concerned about moving stuff into
`kie-tools` for some reasons I could gather from your messages. I'll
try and list them here, along with my perspective on each of them.
1. Never being able to move them out of `kie-tools` again.
This is going to be as hard as it would be removing
`kn-plugin-workflow` from it now. So, as you and others mentioned this
possibility, I assume you understand it to be doable.
2. "Heterodoxizing" an orthodox repository
(`kogito-serverless-operator`), potentially harming external
contributions.
Agree with this point. `kie-tools` is one of a kind, built around
front-end tooling with some completely unique in-house apparatus. In
my experience, though, there are a multitude of factors that make
people want to contribute to an open source project. Conformance to
well-known widespread technologies and tools is just one of them.
Being open about it and writing material to smooth out those edges can
work pretty well. People do not contribute because a codebase is
"pure". People contribute because they care about the project. And I'm
always surprised by the lengths people go to when they want to get
involved.
3. Disruption to the contribution workflow of those contributing to
`kogito-swf-{builder,devmode}` images, and to
`kogito-serverless-operator`.
It is clear to me now that we can't unblock and release Apache KIE 10
without impacting anyone, but I hope the first part of this reply
sheds some light on this complicated matter.
Anyway, that's my attempt to offer a different perspective to some of
the problems you expressed concern about, perhaps even making the
initial proposal shared on this email thread be seen with less
uncertainty.
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:40 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Tiago,
> Unfortunately, my plan is too conceptually simple to write more than I
> already wrote.
> 1) Move kn-plugin-workflow module to operator repo (this remove the
> dependency between tools and operator, breaking the loop)
> 2) Change CI global stream to execute tooling repo before operator repo
> (this seems to take 2 months unless Tristan helps and reduce the time to 2
> weeks)
> 3) Optionally, and just as a consequence of that CI change, set
> 999-SNAPSHOT version to all poms in all repos (if current snapshot numbers
> turns out to be a problem, in any case this is just search-replace)
>
> The current plan is:
> 1) Move everything depending on tools to tools repo, which includes
> operator code and examples.
> 2) Change CI of tooling repo to enforce dependencies between the existing
> modules there and the newly moved ones (this seems to take 3 weeks or less)
>
> I think rather than asking for a more detailed alternative, what needs to
> be done is to refine the existing proposal with the feedback received. I do
> not think both proposals are antagonistic. I think that, being now clear we
> have the same overall goal (execute tooling before operator), it is just a
> question of deciding between move more stuff to an already heterodox repo,
> coming from repos not as heterodox, plus changing the repo CI to impose
> certain order between these modules or pull out the the operator stuff from
> tool repo and put it inside the operator repo plus changing the CI
> handling repos to impose the desired order: first tooling and then operator.
>
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 4:12 PM Tiago Bento <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Francisco,
> >
> > 1) `kie-tools` is already a heterodox repo. The reason why I proposed
> > my proposal is because it is what I think is the best course of action
> > for our community right now. If you think there's a better way to do
> > it, I think everyone, including me, needs to see a proposal with a
> > clear execution plan with a comparable level of detail and analysis in
> > regards to disruption of the current state, the required effort, the
> > contribution workflow for cross-repo PRs, and the release process
> > itself. Otherwise, we risk having gaps that each person will fill in a
> > different way, and IMHO, that's where problems happen. +1 for examples
> > unification, btw :)
> >
> > 2) Ok, and +1 for no categorization.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 10:42 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > 1) Ok, if that is the case, I do not get why your first proposal was not
> > > the one I'm proposing and it is apparently not detailed enough. To move
> > > kn-workflow from tooling to operator one and change the order in which
> > the
> > > repos are being processed. Basically, the problem of the proposed
> > solution
> > > is that it kind of converts tooling repo into a pretty heterodox repo
> > > compared with runtimes, drools or operator one. Also once tooling is not
> > a
> > > final repo in the overall chain, we can consider moving examples as the
> > > final one and include tooling showcases there (rather than splitting
> > > examples into examples with tooling and examples without tooling).
> > > 2) I think this distinction between A and B is one between several
> > possible
> > > categorizations (not much, including no categorization at all) that
> > > deserves a separate discussion. I will open a separate thread for that
> > > purpose, since we are not going to change that now and it is not really
> > > part of the proposal.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 3:28 PM Tiago Bento <
> > [email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Francisco,
> > > >
> > > > 1) That's what this thread is all about... You know I don't think it's
> > > > ok. That's why I'm proposing the two images and the operator to move
> > > > into the `kie-tools` repo, where we can more granularly control the
> > > > order things are built, thus removing the dependency cycle.
> > > >
> > > > 2) Not sure we understand the same thing by "freeze". My proposal is
> > > > that we select a timestamped SNAPSHOT version from Category A repos to
> > > > use as base for a release. We give Category B repos some time to
> > > > adjust, and then cut the release branches. This can happen anytime,
> > > > and no contributions would ever stop because of it. The development
> > > > branches can continue accepting PRs normally, even during the release
> > > > process. Now, if what you're asking is why Category B repos refer to
> > > > Category A repos via timestamped SNAPSHOTs, the answer is in my first
> > > > email. See the paragraph starting with "An important note here is that
> > > > Category B repositories...".
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 10:07 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Tiago
> > > > > There are a couple of simple and straightforward questions that I
> > > > > formulated, but since we both write a lot, it might have been lost.
> > > > Please
> > > > > let me ask them again.
> > > > > 1) Do you think it is ok that tools repo is executed after
> > generation of
> > > > > docker images that are supposed to include those tools or the
> > operator
> > > > that
> > > > > is supposed to deploy such images?
> > > > That's what this thread is all about... You know I'm not ok with it,
> > > > that's why I'm proposing the two images and the operator to move into
> > > > the `kie-tools` repo, where we can more granularly control the order
> > > > things are built and remove the dependency cycle.
> > > > > 2) Besides that, although not directly related with the current
> > proposal
> > > > we
> > > > > are discussing, I really think there are some restrictions taken for
> > > > > granted that are arbitrary and difficult to sustain on strictly
> > technical
> > > > > arguments. For example, the need to freeze the rest of the software
> > > > before
> > > > > tools are generated. Why? We have dependencies between repos that
> > are not
> > > > > handled that way: Apps depend on runtimes. Runtimes depend on drools,
> > > > > Operator depend on runtimes,....and we are not freezing that repos
> > since
> > > > we
> > > > > are all releasing at the same time. If we are all releasing at the
> > same
> > > > > time, what's the rationale behind the freeze?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 2:56 PM Tiago Bento <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Glad to see the interest this proposal has gotten, and it's good to
> > > > > > see some alternatives being drafted here, although still lacking
> > clear
> > > > > > definitions and analysis in regards to disruption, required effort,
> > > > > > the release process itself, and history. Of course, lots of details
> > > > > > and clarity on the execution part would be missing too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As of this moment, based on what I read here, I'm assuming that
> > > > > > everyone who participated so far doesn't see the initial proposal
> > as
> > > > > > problematic in terms of feasibility, but some of you have a
> > preference
> > > > > > not to go with it, because it is "wrong", and apparently because it
> > > > > > would "jeopardize the evolution of the project". Reading these last
> > > > > > words made me a little sad, to be honest. But I can deal with it :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please let's try and keep the discussion as objective as possible.
> > > > > > "Right" and "wrong" are too subjective for this kind of
> > conversation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now, being practical, unless there are clear arguments based on
> > facts
> > > > > > and objective concepts that invalidate the initial proposal shared
> > on
> > > > > > this email, it seems to me that it is currently the only viable
> > > > > > proposal we have for unblocking and releasing Apache KIE 10. Of
> > > > > > course, if we end up seeing an alternative proposal with enough
> > > > > > details and a clear execution plan, I think then we'll be in a very
> > > > > > good position to choose from multiple options!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 8:36 AM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Francisco and Gabriele,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I understand and acknowledge your desire to find the “right”
> > solution
> > > > > > > instead to work on a temporary “patch” - however without a
> > detailed
> > > > > > > proposal I don’t think we can properly evaluate the impact of
> > your
> > > > > > > suggestion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I spoke with different SMEs that included tools and CI, the
> > > > > > > guesstimate for making the necessary changes on CI and codebase
> > to
> > > > > > > basically have images and operators in the end of the build
> > chain is
> > > > > > > something like 2 months of effort. Another impact that needs to
> > be
> > > > > > > discussed is that KIE Tools repo had to be injected in the
> > middle of
> > > > all
> > > > > > > pipelines - forcing all PR checks and nightlies to build all
> > repos
> > > > (PR
> > > > > > > checks will likely take 12+ hours… I even heard that it could be
> > > > even 24
> > > > > > > hours).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Based on the input above, I think it’s quite risk to move in such
> > > > > > direction
> > > > > > > without a more detailed plan… because 2 months could be turned
> > > > easily in
> > > > > > 6!
> > > > > > > And this is exactly what happened when we guessed that moving to
> > > > Apache
> > > > > > > would take no more than 3 months. But here we are.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I really strongly suggest that we focus on a release that could
> > be
> > > > > > > achievable in less than a month from now, and we - after release
> > -
> > > > have a
> > > > > > > in depth discussion about the overall codebase and ci
> > organization.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 8:24 AM Gabriele Cardosi <
> > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Alex,
> > > > > > > > my suggestion is to move the building of all docker images,
> > from
> > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > > repo (kogito-apps, kie-tools) in a different, downstream repo,
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > invoked after all the others.
> > > > > > > > I'm not sure if this would solve all the issues, and since I
> > could
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > enter in the details of all the involved code, my suggestion
> > may
> > > > be too
> > > > > > > > naive.
> > > > > > > > Having spent almost all of the last year in CI, I may say
> > that, at
> > > > > > least
> > > > > > > > for the kie-tools repo, removing the image build step from it
> > > > should
> > > > > > not be
> > > > > > > > too difficult (since it is an issue we already faced and
> > solved).
> > > > > > > > If, with "detailed proposal", you mean a complete list of all
> > > > modules
> > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > moved and dependency refactoring, of course I can not provide
> > it
> > > > right
> > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyway, I share the concern from Francisco: undoing something
> > is
> > > > almost
> > > > > > > > always harder than doing it "rightly" from scratch...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Il giorno mer 13 mar 2024 alle ore 12:43 Francisco Javier
> > Tirado
> > > > Sarti
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > [email protected]> ha scritto:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do not think estimations should be the only driver to make
> > a
> > > > > > decision,
> > > > > > > > > especially when the current proposal is conceptually
> > incompatible
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > multi repo approach that is taken elsewhere in the project.
> > > > > > > > > Given my knowledge of the CI it is nearly impossible for me
> > to
> > > > give
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > fair
> > > > > > > > > estimate of how much it might take to achieve step 2) of my
> > > > previous
> > > > > > > > e-mail
> > > > > > > > > . It might take a while or it might be pretty easy after
> > all, I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > really know, but I think it will be a good idea if some of
> > the
> > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > CI in the team (the ones that set up the pipeline, which was
> > a
> > > > huge
> > > > > > > > > achievement) give an estimate, not me. Estimating how much
> > it
> > > > takes
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > merge two existing repos (without altering CI) is easier,
> > but it
> > > > > > does not
> > > > > > > > > mean we are doing the right thing.
> > > > > > > > > My main concern is that it will be very difficult for me to
> > > > explain
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > someone that arrives new to the team, that having experts on
> > CI
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > team, we decided to merge two repos (once merged, it would be
> > > > rather
> > > > > > > > > difficult to unmerge) rather than fix the CI, because of
> > > > expediency.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:30 PM Alex Porcelli <
> > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Francisco,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Please take the time to make the more in depth analysis
> > needed
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > provide
> > > > > > > > > > a more detailed plan… so we - as community- can evaluate
> > the
> > > > size
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > effort. In the conceptual level you shared it’s near
> > > > impossible to
> > > > > > > > > estimate
> > > > > > > > > > the size of the effort and compare with the current
> > proposal.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 7:23 AM Francisco Javier Tirado
> > Sarti <
> > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think I already did a high level proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) Remove all dependencies from tooling to images, so
> > images
> > > > > > depend
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > tooling but tooling does not depend on images.
> > > > > > > > > > > 2) Then change CI to deal with tooling repo before
> > dealing
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > images
> > > > > > > > > > > repo.
> > > > > > > > > > > I understand that CI details are tricky and since I'm not
> > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > CI
> > > > > > > > > > > in any way, I barely can make a low level design, but we
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > fix
> > > > > > > > > > > everything, just achieve 2), a change of compilation
> > order.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 12:17 PM Alex Porcelli <
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco and Grabriele,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You may not like or understand why the current state of
> > > > the CI
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > that… actually has been in Red Hat and has been
> > replicated
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > used to be….
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But the fact is that this is the current reality.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you disagree with the current plan, please provide a
> > > > > > detailed
> > > > > > > > > > > > alternative so we, as community, can better evaluate
> > the
> > > > pros
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > cons
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > each proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think it’s also fair to say that, post 10 release we
> > > > need to
> > > > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > > > in depth discussion about how our codebase is
> > organized,
> > > > it’s
> > > > > > clear
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > it’s not working.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 6:41 AM Gabriele Cardosi <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As Francisco said,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I also have the impression that the "images" (if we
> > are
> > > > > > talking
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > docker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > images) should be the very last one to be built, in a
> > > > > > standalone
> > > > > > > > > > repo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That way, they may "combine" artifacts that are
> > built in
> > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > > repos,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > regardless of the order in which those are built.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Moving them out of all the repos
> > (kogito-apps/kie-tools)
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > simplify the situation a bit.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (I also think there are some statements of
> > undisputable
> > > > needs
> > > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are, actually, just technical choices.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, this latter point is for longer, following,
> > > > > > discussion.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Il giorno mer 13 mar 2024 alle ore 11:23 Francisco
> > Javier
> > > > > > Tirado
> > > > > > > > > > Sarti
> > > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> ha scritto:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two assumptions that deserve further
> > > > discussion:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) That tool has to be the last to build. why? it
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sense
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to build final images after everything else has
> > been
> > > > > > built?-
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) That the impact (in terms of effort now) on
> > fixing
> > > > CI is
> > > > > > > > > bigger
> > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > impact (long term consequences) of consolidating
> > two
> > > > > > unrelated
> > > > > > > > > > piece
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > software within the same repository.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:15 AM Alex Porcelli <
> > > > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This was discussed as an alternative solution,
> > > > however
> > > > > > it has
> > > > > > > > > > major
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on CI and there’s also the fact Tool has been
> > always
> > > > the
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > has no Snapshot published (actually in JavaScript
> > > > world
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > snapshot concept).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, based on our evaluation… the proposal here
> > is the
> > > > > > least
> > > > > > > > > > > > disruptive
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will take less time to unblock the release.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex Porcelli
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://porcelli.me
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 6:09 AM Francisco Javier
> > > > Tirado
> > > > > > > > Sarti <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After kie-tools, sorry. I think we are not
> > > > embracing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fact
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-images depend on kie-tools, because we
> > want
> > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > images
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > include
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tools.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:08 AM Francisco
> > Javier
> > > > > > Tirado
> > > > > > > > > Sarti
> > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tiago,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It can be an alternative solution to move
> > > > > > > > > kn-plugin-workflow
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-images (so there is not longer
> > dependency
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > tools
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > images)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then build kogito-images after kogito-tools?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 11:01 AM Enrique
> > Gonzalez
> > > > > > > > Martinez
> > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> +1 to unblock release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> El mié, 13 mar 2024, 10:48, Pere Fernandez
> > > > (apache)
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> escribió:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I say +1 in order to move forward with
> > the 10.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On Tue, 12 Mar 2024 at 21:45, Alex
> > Porcelli <
> > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > +1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > I spent the last day or so working
> > closely
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > Tiago,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > exploring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > different
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > options and getting deeper on the
> > impact and
> > > > > > > > > evaluating
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > procedure steps required. I agree with
> > the
> > > > > > proposal
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > viable option for unblocking the 10
> > release
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> frame.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 3:45 PM Tiago
> > Bento
> > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Hi everyone,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Unfortunately, I can't do a tl;dr this
> > > > time,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > matter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> requires a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > lot of context.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > This email will take you < 20 minutes
> > to
> > > > read,
> > > > > > > > > > according
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://thereadtime.com/.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > As you may have followed on a separate
> > > > thread
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/nknm6j641qk2c7cl621tsy3fy98tsc69
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > many of us were working towards
> > removing a
> > > > > > > > circular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dependency
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > currently present between
> > `kogito-apps`
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > progressed towards a solution, we kept
> > > > > > finding the
> > > > > > > > > > > > circular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> dependency
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > pop up somewhere else. I'll do a
> > > > breakdown of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > did,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the results we had.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Right now, even though we started the
> > > > effort
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > move
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quarkus
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dev
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > UI modules to `kie-tools`, we haven't
> > been
> > > > > > able to
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > yet,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> we've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > been busy upgrading KIE Tools to Java
> > 17,
> > > > > > Maven
> > > > > > > > > 3.9.6,
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quarkus
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 3.2.9, compatible with Kogito Runtimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 999-20240218-SNAPSHOT.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > effort was concluded this Monday, with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/pull/2136
> > > > > > > > > > > .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The current scenario we have is:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 01.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > |==> 02.
> > incubator-kie-kogito-apps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C | 03.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Y | 04.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-images
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C | 05.
> > > > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-serverless-operator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > L |
> > ==========================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E | 06.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > |==> 07. incubator-kie-tools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * As
> > `kie-tools`/extended-services
> > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-apps`/jitexecutor;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * and
> > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-apps`/{sonataflow,bpmn}-quarkus-devui
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > depend
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools`/{many packages}
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > After moving the Quarkus Dev UIs to
> > > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > would've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > had:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 01.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 02.
> > > > incubator-kie-kogito-apps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 03.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C |==> 04.
> > > > incubator-kie-kogito-images
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Y | 05.
> > > > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-serverless-operator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C | =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > L | 06.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E |==> 07. incubator-kie-tools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * As
> > > > `kie-tools`/kn-plugin-workflow
> > > > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-images`/kogito-swf-devmode;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * and
> > > > > > `kogito-images`/kogito-swf-devmode
> > > > > > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools`/sonataflow-quarkus-devui
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > After moving the `kogito-swf-devmode`
> > > > image to
> > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> would've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > had:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 01.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 02.
> > > > incubator-kie-kogito-apps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 03.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 04.
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-images
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C |==> 05.
> > > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-serverless-operator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Y | =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C | 06.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > L |==> 07. incubator-kie-tools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * As
> > > > `kie-tools`/kn-plugin-workflow
> > > > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`;
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * and
> > `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools`/kogito-swf-devmode
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Clearly, we have a much bigger problem
> > > > than a
> > > > > > > > simple
> > > > > > > > > > > > > circular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > dependency.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > After multiple conversations with a
> > lot of
> > > > > > people,
> > > > > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > hard coming up with a simple solution
> > that
> > > > > > makes
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > possible
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Apache KIE in one shot, while
> > preserving
> > > > the
> > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > contributing to the multiple
> > repositories
> > > > we
> > > > > > have.
> > > > > > > > > > More
> > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > while making this assessment, I found
> > more
> > > > > > > > problems
> > > > > > > > > > > that,
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > perspective, block Apache KIE 10.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > In light of that difficulty, I'm
> > coming
> > > > > > forward
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > proposal
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the Apache KIE release process, so we
> > can
> > > > use
> > > > > > > > > Apache's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mechanisms
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > have a slower-paced, in-depth debate
> > about
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > complicated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > matter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I'll lay out my entire perspective
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > > situation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > codebase, as well as problems I can
> > > > currently
> > > > > > see.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > analysis of the repositories and their
> > > > > > purposes,
> > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > problems that I believe are blocking
> > our
> > > > 10
> > > > > > > > release,
> > > > > > > > > > > > explain
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > proposal and discuss some
> > consequences to
> > > > > > what I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > proposing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Let's begin.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > # THE APACHE KIE REPOS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A. DROOLS OPTAPLANNER, & KOGITO
> > (count:
> > > > 11)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-pipelines @
> > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-drools @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-optaplanner @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > incubator-kie-optaplanner-quickstarts @
> > > > > > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes @
> > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-apps @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-examples @
> > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-images @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > incubator-kie-kogito-serverless-operator @
> > > > > > > > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-docs @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-docs @ `main-kogito`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > B. TOOLS (count: 2)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator @
> > > > > > > > > `0.0.0`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-tools @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > C. BENCHMARKS (count: 2)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-benchmarks @
> > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-benchmarks @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > D. ARCHIVED (count: 1)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-operator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E. "NON-CODE" (count: 5)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-issues @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (Issues only, README should be
> > > > updated @
> > > > > > > > `main`.
> > > > > > > > > > > Same
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GitHub
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Actions workflows.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-website @
> > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (The Kogito website. Develop &
> > deploy
> > > > at
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > branch.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-website @ `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (The KIE website. Develop @
> > `main`.
> > > > Push @
> > > > > > > > > > `deploy`
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > update
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > website.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-online @
> > `gh-pages`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (GitHub pages used to host
> > > > > > sandbox.kie.org
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > KIE
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tools'
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Chrome
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Extension assets.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - incubator-kie-kogito-online-staging
> > @
> > > > `main`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (Same as above, but for manual
> > sanity
> > > > > > checks
> > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > staging
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > phase of a release.)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > TOTAL (count: 21)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I grouped the repositories by
> > category,
> > > > and
> > > > > > listed
> > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > topological order. Keep in mind that
> > when
> > > > > > > > flattening
> > > > > > > > > > > out a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tree,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > are multiple possibilities. For
> > example,
> > > > > > > > OptaPlanner
> > > > > > > > > > > > > could've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > placed in any position after Drools.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category A repos are what I've been
> > > > referring
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > `drools`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-*` stream. Of course
> > OptaPlanner
> > > > is
> > > > > > inside
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stream,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > way these repositories reference each
> > > > other
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maven
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > SNAPSHOTs. More specifically, the
> > > > 999-SNAPSHOT
> > > > > > > > > > version.
> > > > > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> mechanism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > is well-known to the team, and
> > although
> > > > > > flawed for
> > > > > > > > > > > > intra-day
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > builds
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and disruptive for people in many
> > > > different
> > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > > > zones,
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > very comfortable for everyone to work
> > > > with, I
> > > > > > > > > assume.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Contributions made to Category A have
> > some
> > > > > > > > dedicated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pipelines,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > are, at least to some extent, able to
> > > > build
> > > > > > > > > cross-repo
> > > > > > > > > > > PRs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > together
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and verify that the codebase will
> > continue
> > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > expected
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > after
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > they're all merged. From what I could
> > > > gather,
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > "sub-streams" currently configured for
> > > > > > cross-repo
> > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - kogito-pipelines
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - drools, kogito-runtimes,
> > kogito-apps,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - optaplanner, and
> > optaplanner-quickstarts
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - kogito-images, and
> > > > > > kogito-serverless-operator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - kogito-docs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > - kie-docs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > This means that sending cross-repo
> > PRs to
> > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > combination
> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > that are not part of the same
> > "sub-stream"
> > > > > > cannot
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > verified
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > merging, making our contribution model
> > > > > > dependent
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > individual
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > contributors building stuff on their
> > > > machines
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > verify
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> works.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I based this analysis on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-pipelines/blob/main/.ci/project-dependencies.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-optaplanner/blob/main/.ci/buildchain-project-dependencies.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-pipelines/blob/main/.ci/jenkins/config/branch.yaml
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Note that I'm not that familiar with
> > these
> > > > > > > > > pipelines,
> > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > please
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > someone correct me if I'm wrong.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category B repos are what I've been
> > > > referring
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > stream. The first repo there is a
> > template
> > > > > > > > > repository
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > people starting projects from scratch
> > on
> > > > KIE
> > > > > > > > > Sandbox,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Maven archetype, if you will. The
> > other
> > > > one
> > > > > > is the
> > > > > > > > > KIE
> > > > > > > > > > > > Tools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> monorepo,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > a polyglot monorepo with `pnpm` as its
> > > > build
> > > > > > > > system.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KIE
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Tools hosts Java libraries and apps,
> > > > > > TypeScript
> > > > > > > > > > > libraries
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > apps,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Go
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > apps, Docker images, and Helm charts.
> > The
> > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > monorepo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > configured to work with sparse
> > checkouts
> > > > and
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > partial
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > builds.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category B repos refer to Category A
> > repos
> > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > > > > > > timestamped
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > SNAPSHOTs. This is a new mechanism we
> > > > recently
> > > > > > > > > > > introduced
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > build and publish immutable,
> > persistent
> > > > > > artifacts
> > > > > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > following the 999-YYYYMMDD-SNAPSHOT
> > > > format,
> > > > > > > > > published
> > > > > > > > > > > > weekly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Sunday night. Timestamped SNAPSHOTs
> > are an
> > > > > > > > evolution
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kogito
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > releases, as we're now targeting one
> > > > release
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KIE,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > we can't have Kogito releases anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > An important note here is that
> > Category B
> > > > > > > > > repositories
> > > > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > historically kept out of any
> > automations
> > > > we
> > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > when Kogito started and we had the
> > > > Business
> > > > > > > > Central
> > > > > > > > > > > > (a.k.a.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > v7)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> stream
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > still going on. For this reason,
> > Category
> > > > B
> > > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > developed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > their own automations, based on GitHub
> > > > > > Actions.
> > > > > > > > > > > Category B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > always depended on Category A repos
> > using
> > > > > > fixed
> > > > > > > > > > > versions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Category
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > B repos have had adopted mutable
> > > > SNAPSHOTs,
> > > > > > > > breaking
> > > > > > > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category A repositories would've had
> > the
> > > > > > potential
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > break
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Category B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > silently, leaving Category B with a
> > broken
> > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > stream,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > introducing unpleasant surprises for
> > > > > > maintainers
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Category B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> repos,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > as historically Category A
> > contributors
> > > > were
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category B repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Contributions made to Category B
> > repos go
> > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > GitHub
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > workflow that builds the relevant
> > part of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > monorepo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the changes introduced. Changes made
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > pipeline
> > > > > > > > > > > > itself
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > picked up as part of PRs, allowing us
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atomically
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > bumping the Node.js version, for
> > example.
> > > > More
> > > > > > > > > > > > importantly,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > us to upgrade the repository to a new
> > > > > > timestamped
> > > > > > > > > > > SNAPSHOT
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > together
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > with the changes necessary to make it
> > stay
> > > > > > green.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > This setup, however, makes it
> > impossible
> > > > to
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > cross-repo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > involving Category A and Category B
> > > > > > > > simultaneously,
> > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > automations we have.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category C repos are kind of floating
> > > > around,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > there's much activity going on there.
> > > > > > Regardless,
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > they're
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Apache KIE, they will be part of our
> > > > release,
> > > > > > so I
> > > > > > > > > > > listed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > to take them into consideration too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category D is self explanatory.
> > There's
> > > > only
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > repo
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > been marked for being archived.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category E are repos that do not host
> > code
> > > > > > > > directly,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > organizational entities, or host
> > websites,
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > currently
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> part
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > of any pipelines we have.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > This lack of unification between
> > Category
> > > > A
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > Category B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > what allowed us to introduce the
> > infamous
> > > > > > circular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dependency
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools` and `kogito-apps`, which
> > we
> > > > now
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > describe
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> circular
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > dependency between Category A and
> > > > Category B.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > had a single pipeline, building
> > everything
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > `drools`
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools`, such flaws would've never
> > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > introduced,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > wouldn't be having this huge problem
> > in
> > > > our
> > > > > > hands
> > > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > My proposal for the Apache KIE release
> > > > process
> > > > > > > > sees
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > lack
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > unification as a central problem, not
> > > > only for
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > particular, but for the community as a
> > > > whole.
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > belief
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > are all under the same roof, and that
> > no
> > > > > > > > > contribution
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > allowed to break any part of our
> > codebase.
> > > > > > With
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > increasing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> volume
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > of code, and hopefully number of
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > too,
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > cannot
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > counting on "common sense" to avoid
> > > > breaking
> > > > > > > > things.
> > > > > > > > > > > We're
> > > > > > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> humans
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > after all, and it is our job to have
> > > > > > mechanisms in
> > > > > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > prevent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > from unwillingly making mistakes.
> > > > Especially
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mistakes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > impact on parts of the codebase that
> > we,
> > > > > > > > > individually,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> can't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > fix.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > # THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE RIGHT NOW
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P1. Quarkus Dev UIs @ `kogito-apps`
> > > > depending
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > kiegroup's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > KIE
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Tools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `0.32.0`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Akiegroup%2Fkogito-apps+path%3Apackage.json+kie-tools&type=code
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P2. PR open for Kogito SWF images @
> > > > > > > > `kogito-images`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > kiegroup's KIE Tools `0.32.0`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/tree/main/packages/sonataflow-deployment-webapp
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P3. DashBuilder @ `kie-tools`
> > depending on
> > > > > > > > > kiegroup's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > `lienzo`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-soup` artifacts at version
> > > > > > `7.59.0.Final`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/blob/main/packages/dashbuilder/pom.xml#L64
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aapache%2Fincubator-kie-tools+path%3Apackages%2Fdashbuilder+%24%7Bversion.org.kie%7D&type=code
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P4. Multiple packages @ `kogito-apps`
> > > > > > depending on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > kiegroup's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Explainability `1.22.1.Final`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * This module was removed from the KIE
> > > > > > codebase
> > > > > > > > > here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-apps/commit/bbb22c06d37e77b97aae6496d74abe43a8cfc965
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and now lives on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > https://github.com/trustyai-explainability/trustyai-explainability
> > > > > > > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > under a different GAV.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * This new repo depends on Kogito and
> > > > > > OptaPlanner,
> > > > > > > > > > > > pointing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > older
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > versions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aapache%2Fincubator-kie-kogito-apps+%3Eexplainability-core%3C&type=code
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/trustyai-explainability/trustyai-explainability/blob/main/pom.xml#L52-L53
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P5.
> > > > > > `incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator`
> > > > > > > > > > > depending
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kogito
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `1.32.0.Final` and Quarkus
> > `2.15.3.Final`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator/blob/0.0.0/pom.xml#L32-L38
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P6. Category C repos are out of date
> > and
> > > > not
> > > > > > part
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Category
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > CI/Release pipelines.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * incubator-kie-kogito-benchmarks:
> > > > (Current
> > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> `2.0-SNAPSHOT`,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > depending on Kogito without a specific
> > > > > > version,
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `http://localhost:8080`)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * incubator-kie-benchmarks: (Current
> > > > version
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > `1.0-SNAPSHOT`,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > pointing to Drools 999-SNAPSHOT and
> > > > > > OptaPlanner
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > `8.45.0-SNAPSHOT`)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P7.
> > > > `kie-tools`/packages/kn-plugin-workflow
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > > E2E
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > disabled
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> after
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > upgrading to 999-20240218-SNAPSHOT.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > In my perspective, P1 and P2 have the
> > same
> > > > > > > > solution,
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > both
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > suffer from the circular dependency
> > > > between
> > > > > > > > > Category A
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Category
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> B.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > As Category A and Category B are both
> > > > streams
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > active, I see this as a blocker, as
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > contributions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > cannot be done, given that Category A
> > > > depends
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > Category
> > > > > > > > > > > > B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > dephasing of 1 release.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P3 and P4, although not ideal, can be
> > > > > > understood
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debt.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Depending on unmaintained projects is
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > we'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > always
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > susceptible to, given time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P5 and P6 are easily fixable, as it's
> > > > just a
> > > > > > > > matter
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > making
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > part of the play.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P7 is an isolated problem that won't
> > > > impact
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > structure
> > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> anything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > that we're talking about here, but it
> > is a
> > > > > > > > > regression
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > introduced
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > recently.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Assuming P3 and P4 can be ignored for
> > > > Apache
> > > > > > KIE
> > > > > > > > 10,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P5,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> P6,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and P7 have easy fixes, the only
> > problems
> > > > > > left to
> > > > > > > > > > > discuss
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > P1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > P2, which can't be done without a
> > proper
> > > > > > proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > # THE PROPOSAL
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I'll try to be very meticulous here,
> > since
> > > > > > from my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > experience,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > little miscalculation can lead to our
> > > > release
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > end. To try and avoid that as much as
> > > > > > possible,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > can to have a successful Apache KIE 10
> > > > > > release,
> > > > > > > > bear
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> lay
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > out a timeline of events that need to
> > > > happen
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > to be published, with all artifacts
> > > > ending up
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > places,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > first, we need to solve problems P1
> > and
> > > > P2.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > As you saw at the beginning of this
> > email,
> > > > > > all the
> > > > > > > > > > > > attempts
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > made
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > left us with the circular dependency
> > > > showing
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > at a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> place,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > but something all these places have in
> > > > common
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > they're
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > after kogito-apps, and before to
> > Category
> > > > B.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The first part of my proposal is the
> > > > > > following:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > S1. We keep the original plan of
> > moving
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > Quarkus
> > > > > > > > > > Dev
> > > > > > > > > > > > UIs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-apps` to `kie-tools`, together
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > > Management
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Task
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > consoles from `kogito-images` to
> > > > `kie-tools`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > S2. We move the `kogito-swf-devmode`
> > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-swf-builder`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > images
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > from `kogito-images` to `kie-tools`
> > too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > S3. We move the entire
> > > > > > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > > > > > > repo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > inside
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > package on `kie-tools`, keeping Git
> > > > history.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Solutions S1, S2, and S3 together
> > solve
> > > > > > problems
> > > > > > > > P1
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > P2.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> course
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the rest of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/967
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > would still be done too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > This doesn't come without
> > consequences, of
> > > > > > course,
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-swf-devmode` and
> > > > `kogito-swf-builder`
> > > > > > > > > images,
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator` would be
> > > > moving
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > Category A
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category B. This move would make them
> > > > have to
> > > > > > > > > > reference
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Category A
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > repos through timestamped SNAPSHOTs.
> > Since
> > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-images`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator` are
> > already
> > > > > > their own
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "sub-stream"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> inside
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category A, though, contributions
> > made in
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > cross-repo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fashion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > "sub-stream" will continue being
> > > > possible, now
> > > > > > > > via a
> > > > > > > > > > > > single
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools`. Cross-repo PRs between
> > > > Category
> > > > > > A and
> > > > > > > > > > > > Category
> > > > > > > > > > > > > B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > continue not being possible, and a
> > 1-week
> > > > > > delay
> > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > merging
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > something on Category A and using it
> > on
> > > > > > Category B
> > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> happen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > It's worth mentioning that
> > `kie-tools`,
> > > > > > however,
> > > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > > > allow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> sparse
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > checkouts and partial builds, so
> > working
> > > > with
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > subset
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> monorepo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > is possible and encouraged. Making
> > changes
> > > > > > only to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `packages/kn-plugin-workflow`, for
> > > > example,
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > PR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > checks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > run in < 10 minutes, as you can see
> > here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/actions/runs/8237244382/job/22525511722?pr=2136
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > We're not compromising when running
> > > > partial
> > > > > > builds
> > > > > > > > > > too.
> > > > > > > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the entire repo will continue working
> > even
> > > > > > after
> > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > building a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> small
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > subset of the changes. Doing partial
> > or
> > > > full
> > > > > > > > builds
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > automatically
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > determined by the changes of a PR.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Keep in mind that, even though I'm
> > > > proposing
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > move a
> > > > > > > > > > > > bunch
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > additional stuff into `kie-tools`, I
> > see
> > > > this
> > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > > > > > TEMPORARY
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> solution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > for our codebase. `kie-tools` would
> > host
> > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > additional
> > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > TEMPORARILY so that we can release and
> > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > moving
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > forward.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > As I mentioned on other places,
> > > > `kie-tools`
> > > > > > > > became a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > polyglot
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> monorepo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > out of necessity, and although I'm
> > really
> > > > > > proud of
> > > > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > achieved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > there so far, I don't think
> > `kie-tools`
> > > > has a
> > > > > > > > setup
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suitable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > for all the different nuances that
> > > > compose our
> > > > > > > > > > > community.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > aware that a polyglot monorepo that
> > does
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > widespread
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > conventions will scare some people
> > away,
> > > > and
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tried
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > make build instructions clear, we
> > can't
> > > > > > always get
> > > > > > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> prejudice
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > some people have towards the
> > "front-end"
> > > > > > > > ecosystem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > With all that said, I keep thinking
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > course
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> action
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > for us right now. We keep most of our
> > > > stuff
> > > > > > > > > unchanged,
> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unblock
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > release, and we have a working setup
> > that
> > > > will
> > > > > > > > suit
> > > > > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > discuss and reach a conclusion
> > regarding
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > future
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > codebase
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > structure.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Let me paint a quick picture here of
> > what
> > > > our
> > > > > > code
> > > > > > > > > > base
> > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > like, repository-wise, if my proposal
> > is
> > > > > > accepted:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > CATEGORY REPO
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A
> > incubator-kie-kogito-pipelines
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A incubator-kie-drools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A incubator-kie-optaplanner
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A
> > > > > > incubator-kie-optaplanner-quickstarts
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A
> > incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A incubator-kie-kogito-apps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A
> > incubator-kie-kogito-examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A
> > incubator-kie-kogito-images
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A incubator-kie-kogito-docs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A
> > > > incubator-kie-kogito-benchmarks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A incubator-kie-docs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > A incubator-kie-benchmarks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > B
> > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-sandbox-quarkus-accelerator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > B incubator-kie-tools
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > D
> > incubator-kie-kogito-operator
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E incubator-kie-issues
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E
> > incubator-kie-kogito-website
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E incubator-kie-website
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E
> > incubator-kie-kogito-online
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > E
> > > > > > incubator-kie-kogito-online-staging
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > =====================
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * Category C becomes part of Category
> > A,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator` moves
> > > > entirely
> > > > > > inside
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > * With `kogito-swf-{builder,devmode}`
> > > > images
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator` inside
> > > > > > `kie-tools`,
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cycles
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > anymore, as inside `kie-tools`, we can
> > > > > > granularly
> > > > > > > > > > build:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 1.
> > > > packages/sonataflow-deployment-webapp
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 2.
> > packages/sonataflow-quarkus-devui
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 3. packages/sonataflow-images
> > > > (containing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > `kogito-swf-builder`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-swf-devmode`)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 4. packages/sonataflow-operator
> > > > (contents
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 5. packages/kn-plugin-sonataflow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (`packages/kn-plugin-workflow`,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > but renamed)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The second part of the proposal is the
> > > > release
> > > > > > > > > process
> > > > > > > > > > > > > itself,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > assuming the structure above is what
> > we
> > > > have.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Here it is:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 1. Define a timestamped SNAPSHOT to be
> > > > used as
> > > > > > > > > cutting
> > > > > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Category A repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 2. Update Category B repos to point to
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > timestamped
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SNAPSHOT,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > verify that everything is working.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 3. At this point, with everything
> > > > working, we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > branch
> > > > > > > > > > > > out
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > `10.0.x`. Category A from the
> > timestamped
> > > > > > SNAPSHOT
> > > > > > > > > > tag,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Category B
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > from `main`.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 4. All Category A and Category B repos
> > > > update
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > versions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 10.0.0, in their `10.0.x` branches.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 5. Update Category B repos to point to
> > > > > > Category A
> > > > > > > > > > repos
> > > > > > > > > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 10.0.0 version.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 6. At this point, we can vote on the
> > > > release
> > > > > > based
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > `10.0.x`
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > branches, given we don't expect any
> > code
> > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > > > anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 7. After voting passes, we're good to
> > > > start
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 8. Category A repos follow their
> > > > > > manual/automated
> > > > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > pointing to the `10.0.x` branch. Tags
> > > > pushed
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > Git,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > built
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > artifacts pushed to their registries.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 9. We wait a little bit for Category A
> > > > > > artifacts
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > propagated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > registries. ~1 day.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 10. Category B repos follow their
> > > > > > manual/automated
> > > > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > pointing to the `10.0.x` branch. Tags
> > > > pushed
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > Git,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > built
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > artifacts pushed to their registries.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 11. Category D repos are ignored.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 12. Category E repos can be manually
> > > > tagged
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > 10.0.0
> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > default branches.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > More needs to be discussed if we're
> > > > planning
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > maintain
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > multiple
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > release streams in parallel, but I
> > guess
> > > > it
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > wait
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > after
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > KIE 10.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Thank you for reading, and I'm looking
> > > > > > forward to
> > > > > > > > > > > hearing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Of course, alternative solutions are
> > > > possible.
> > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > email,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > however,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > summarizes my view of how we should
> > > > attack the
> > > > > > > > > > problem,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > considering
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > disruption, required effort, the
> > release
> > > > > > process
> > > > > > > > > > itself,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> history.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Feel free to propose alternatives.
> > This is
> > > > > > not a
> > > > > > > > > > voting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Tiago Bento
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >
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> >
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