Gabrielle,
I think a real use case example where a change in the backend breaks
tooling work in a way they are fully blocked.
And, I would argue, if such thing ever occur, then as soon as we detect
that, the better.
Just an example, let's say we change a REST endpoint in a way, runtime
tooling stops working, the sooner we realize that change is not compatible
with the tool, the better.

On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 12:57 PM Gabriele Cardosi <
[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Enrique,
> I'm ignoring anything else, but regarding
>
> "The other topic you are talking is the build. The question was summarized
> by Francisco.if we build the repos in order, does kie tool able to build
> properly with the snapshots built in the pipeline or does need additional
> steps ?"
>
> I think the core of the problem is the following:
> when we backender made a modification (e.g. in drools repo) we are somehow
> responsible to fix eventual break downstream (e.g. kogito-runtimes,
> kogito-examples, etc), but we completely ignores the tooling, and we won't
> probably be able to fix it. So, the tooling guys must rely on some "stable"
> version, otherwise we could break their work on a daily basis.
> This is more or less the situation I found when I joined: the drools built
> was separated from the drools-wb one, sometimes modification on drools repo
> broke drools-wb, and then they decided to pipeline the twos, to have
> immediate recognition, and fix, of that (at that time, our drools-wb job
> was to build drools every morning and then start working on drools-wb: if
> something get broken in drools-wb, then we pinged drool devs to understand
> reason and eventually make fix).
> The solutions I see for our situation are:
>
>    1. keep tooling depend on some stable release, preserving independence
>    from backender changes
>    2. enforce/improve cooperation between backender and tooling guys, so
>    that as soon as some breaking change is made by the former, the latter
> can
>    immediately fix
>
>
> Side notes:
>
>    1. About point 1, I do not think it breaks the "single product" rule,
>    because at release time everything should be aligned
>    2. About point 2, I'm not sure it is so easy to do
>    3.  IMO this is completely transparent regarding where the code lives,
>    and "single CI" means a single build system that properly manages the
> code
>    to build
>
> Sorry if all the above was already clear and obvious to everyone 😀
>
> Best
>
> Gabriele
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno ven 10 mag 2024 alle ore 12:08 Enrique Gonzalez Martinez <
> [email protected]> ha scritto:
>
> > Hi Alex
> >
> > You are mixing stuff here Alex.
> >
> > PR checks are there for guarding that nothing breaks when somebody is
> > pushing code. If kie tools can break because is not there it means we
> have
> > a problem in there. Keep in mind i am not talking about the cause why
> they
> > are missing checks in our PR, it could be resources it could be something
> > else.
> >
> > The other topic you are talking is the build. The question was summarized
> > by Francisco.if we build the repos in order, does kie tool able to build
> > properly with the snapshots built in the pipeline or does need additional
> > steps ?
> >
> >
> > Publishing artifacts is a whole different topic from the build. Regarding
> > sync multiple deployments from the multirepo build i guess it could be a
> > problem, but also that is not the question here.
> >
> >
> >
> > El vie, 10 may 2024, 11:55, Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> escribió:
> >
> > > Tiago already provided a in-depth explanation of the issue in this ML,
> > > that is summarized in the circular dependency thread [1]
> > >
> > >
> > > TL;DR: **Today** KIE-Tools is not part of any PR checks in the runtime
> > > repositories (drools, optaplanner, runtimes and apps) - so a change in
> > > those repos can break KIE Tools. If we were to continue to use
> > > SNAPSHOTs, we need unify to a single CI that would include all
> > > repositories - including KIE Tools.
> > >
> > > [1] - https://lists.apache.org/thread/58xm7pqdyztf7qztmhvntf8wdmvfx7jx
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 5:15 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Tiago,
> > > > I would argue that, being all the repos part of the same release,
> > mutable
> > > > snapshot is perfectly acceptable. As it currently happens between
> > > Runtimes
> > > > repo and Drools repo (which have the Kie api) and Apps repo and
> > Runtimes
> > > > repo. I, as I believe Enrique (at least if what I understood from his
> > > > e-mail) , do not understand why tooling should be different in that
> > > regard.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 1:26 AM Tiago Bento <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Zanini and Enrique,
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sure if I'm making it sound differently, but everything I'm
> > saying
> > > > > is also aiming towards a healthy CI. Not only for SonataFlow or
> > Tools,
> > > > > though. For all of Apache KIE.
> > > > >
> > > > > My main point is that mutable Maven SNAPSHOTs are harming us,
> giving
> > a
> > > > > false impression of synchronization between the repos. It's an
> "easy
> > > > > way out" we've been historically abusing, IMHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > One of the best advantages of having multiple repos is that they
> can
> > > > > be individually developed, tested, and managed. However, by using
> > > > > Maven SNAPSHOTs as the synchronization mechanism, we can't
> guarantee
> > > > > that, since repos become broken on any given day. More than that,
> > it's
> > > > > impossible to go "back in time" on our development branches, since
> > the
> > > > > SNAPSHOT version will always point to latest.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please read this section from the guidelines of the SciJava project
> > at
> > > > > https://github.com/scijava/pom-scijava-base/blob/main/README.md.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Reproducible builds. This rule means no SNAPSHOT dependencies, no
> > > > > SNAPSHOT parents, and no SNAPSHOT plugin versions. A snapshot
> version
> > > > > is not immutable, which means that code which depends on a snapshot
> > > > > may build today, but not build tomorrow, if the snapshot is later
> > > > > changed. The best way to avoid this conundrum is to never depend on
> > > > > SNAPSHOT versions. Snapshot are best used for testing only; they
> can
> > > > > be used transiently, but their use should never make it onto the
> main
> > > > > integration branch (e.g., main or master) of a project. See also
> > Using
> > > > > snapshot couplings during development at
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> https://imagej.net/develop/architecture#using-snapshot-couplings-during-development
> > > > > ."
> > > > >
> > > > > This summarizes very well the problem I'm trying to convey here. Of
> > > > > course, their words are much more clear than all the explanations I
> > > > > tried giving so far.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 9:43 AM ricardo zanini fernandes
> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tiago,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, this is a major problem in our current structure that we
> > > should
> > > > > use
> > > > > > another thread to discuss. For my proposal is to at least have a
> > > health
> > > > > > cloud build platform. We can completely remove UI from our images
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > > SonataFlow space and keep the consoles in kie-tools. Once we
> solve
> > > the
> > > > > deep
> > > > > > structural problem we have, we can evaluate it better. What we
> > can't
> > > do
> > > > > is
> > > > > > be behind and not release.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The template image is pretty useful if you really want to test
> the
> > > DevUI
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the image. You can easily pull the container file and build the
> > image
> > > > > > during your integration tests and run the tests you need. We can
> do
> > > the
> > > > > > same in the image. I don't see a waste of resources, but as a
> > > temporary
> > > > > > alternative until we figure out the deeper problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the moment, everything "tools" related is in a single repo and
> > the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > components are scattered in many other repos. We have to decide
> if
> > we
> > > > > want
> > > > > > mono repos (infra-oriented) or context repos (feature-oriented).
> We
> > > can't
> > > > > > have both otherwise the mono repos will start to drag others to
> it,
> > > as we
> > > > > > are seeing happening.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So IMO, we need first to sit down together and have a new repo
> > > structure
> > > > > > design, perhaps based on components. We need to evaluate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the time being, we need to move forward at least and I can
> live
> > > with
> > > > > > integration tests at the end of the line using final
> versions/built
> > > > > > versions of the DevUI if needed for SonataFlow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 10:32 AM ricardo zanini fernandes <
> > > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Enrique!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The images are using SNAPSHOTS from apps/runtimes currently.
> > There
> > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > decision in the past to build apps in the images from the
> > > > > main/versioned
> > > > > > > branch. We are changing this to use SNAPSHOT/versioned
> artifacts
> > > > > published
> > > > > > > in Maven. About kie-tools, I don't know either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We can use immutable snapshots (weekly, nightlies) instead. I'm
> > not
> > > > > > > against it. But we do need those for integration tests or at
> > least
> > > a
> > > > > robust
> > > > > > > CI platform to do integration without snapshots.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 5:07 AM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez <
> > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hi Tiago,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I think the discussion is related to the graph dependency for
> > > now. So
> > > > > > >> I would keep that in mind. Anyway I am kinda surprised about
> > some
> > > > > > >> concepts like (mutable snapshots and using snapshot published
> > > > > > >> timestamps like they are final).
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Now I think I understand where the problem lies now; so
> > basically
> > > if
> > > > > > >> we had the proper graph dependency project built based on
> proper
> > > > > > >> snapshots everything would build just ok. So my question is
> > pretty
> > > > > > >> simple, why is it not possible for kie tools or kogito images
> to
> > > use
> > > > > > >> the maven snapshot concept and point out to the last snapshot
> > > build
> > > > > > >> (either local or remote) like other maven projects work. Is
> > there
> > > any
> > > > > > >> limitation there ?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> El mié, 8 may 2024 a las 22:30, Tiago Bento (<
> > > [email protected]>)
> > > > > > >> escribió:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Hi Zanini! Welcome back, hope you had a great time during
> your
> > > PTO.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > If I understand correctly, the way you see the integration
> > > between
> > > > > > >> > repos relies heavily on timestamped SNAPSHOTs. This way:
> > > > > > >> > 1. `kogito-images` would stop building `kogito-apps`, and
> > would
> > > rely
> > > > > > >> > on timestamped SNAPSHOTs being published from
> > > > > > >> > `drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps`.
> > > > > > >> > 2. `kie-tools` would start publishing timestamped SNAPSHOTs
> > for
> > > its
> > > > > UI
> > > > > > >> > components, so they would be consumed downstream by
> > > > > > >> > `kogito-serverless-operator`.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > If that's what you mean, let me elaborate on some of the
> > > > > consequences
> > > > > > >> > of this integration model, where we stop using the mutable
> > > > > > >> > 999-SNAPSHOT and start relying more on timestamped SNAPSHOTs
> > for
> > > > > > >> > cross-repo synchronization:
> > > > > > >> > a. Cross-repo PRs would not be possible anymore, depending
> on
> > > which
> > > > > > >> > repos are involved in the ensemble. This would create
> > boundaries
> > > > > > >> > between certain groups of our repos, namely:
> > > > > > >> > drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps -->
> > > kogito-images -->
> > > > > > >> > kie-tools, --> kogito-serverless-operator. So 4 "independent
> > > > > > >> > clusters".
> > > > > > >> > b. kogito-images, kie-tools, and kogito-serverless-operator,
> > > using
> > > > > > >> > timestamped SNAPSHOTs between themselves, would make the
> most
> > > > > upstream
> > > > > > >> > of the three (in this case, `kogito-images`), to be the one
> > > defining
> > > > > > >> > what timestamped SNAPSHOT version we should use for its
> > upstream
> > > > > > >> > dependencies
> (drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps).
> > > In
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> > details: If `kogito-images` depends on
> > > > > > >> > `drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps` using
> version
> > > > > > >> > 999-20240501, that's the version `kie-tools` and
> > > > > > >> > `kogito-serverless-operator` need to use as well, as the
> > > > > > >> > drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps would come
> > > > > transitively
> > > > > > >> > from the `kogito-images` dependency these two repos would
> > have.
> > > > > This,
> > > > > > >> > IMHO, causes a lot of confusion, since the dates on the
> > > timestamped
> > > > > > >> > SNAPSHOT versions have implicit transitive dependencies to
> > other
> > > > > > >> > upstream projects that also have their own timestamped
> > SNAPSHOTs
> > > > > > >> > published. I.e., 999-20240501 of `kie-tools` won't be
> aligned
> > > with
> > > > > > >> > 999-2024051 of
> > `drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps`.
> > > > > > >> > c. Updating dependencies across the board would be much more
> > > > > > >> > difficult, as we would need to rely on a chain reaction
> > starting
> > > > > from
> > > > > > >> > the `drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps` cluster
> > > all the
> > > > > > >> > way down to `kogito-serverless-operator`, releasing
> > timestamped
> > > > > > >> > SNAPSHOTs and sending PRs for each "cluster" along the way.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I'm not sure this is the way we want to move forward, to be
> > > honest,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > >> > these consequences need to be thoroughly examined by people
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > >> > community, so that all the side-effects of this choice are
> > > clear to
> > > > > > >> > everyone.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > To conclude, having `kie-tools` building a "template image"
> to
> > > > > verify
> > > > > > >> > that it will not break `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > downstream,
> > > and
> > > > > > >> > having `kogito-serverless-operator` building parts of
> > > `kie-tools` to
> > > > > > >> > incorporate the latest changes, IMHO, is:
> > > > > > >> > 1. Duplication of building logic. IMHO, we can't have
> > individual
> > > > > repos
> > > > > > >> > creating its own up- and downstream CI systems.
> > > > > > >> > 2. Conflicting with the timestamped SNAPSHOTs strategy for
> > > > > integrating
> > > > > > >> > repos, where boundaries are clearly defined.
> > > > > > >> > 3. Wasteful use of resources (same that is happening with
> > > > > > >> > `kogito-images` building `kogito-apps` right now).
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I'm sorry for bringing all this to this seemingly simple
> > > proposal,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > >> > I'm afraid taking steps without knowing where we're going
> > isn't
> > > the
> > > > > > >> > way to move forward.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Please let me know if I misunderstood something.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 3:15 PM ricardo zanini fernandes
> > > > > > >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Hi!
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Sorry for the late reply, I was on PTO.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Replies inline.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > The `kie-tools` CI is not prepared to build
> > > > > > >> > > `kogito-serverless-operator`, so the way
> > > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > > >> > > references the SonataFlow Quarkus Dev UI will be important
> > to
> > > > > > >> > > establish the boundaries between both repos. To further
> > > develop
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > > SonataFlow Quarkus Dev UI and have its changes reflect on
> > the
> > > > > > >> > > `kogito-swf-devmode` image, we need to come up with a
> > strategy
> > > > > that is
> > > > > > >> > > both safe, consistent, and enforces correctness. There's
> > also
> > > the
> > > > > fact
> > > > > > >> > > that currently `kie-tools` depends on timestamped
> SNAPSHOTs
> > of
> > > > > > >> > > Kogito/Drools, while `kogito-serverless-operator` uses
> > > > > 999-SNAPSHOT,
> > > > > > >> > > if I'm not mistaken. Can you elaborate a little bit more
> on
> > > how
> > > > > you
> > > > > > >> > > see this reference being done? Please consider cross-repo
> > PRs
> > > for
> > > > > big
> > > > > > >> > > migrations like the Quarkus 3.8.4 that is currently
> > happening.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > This will make us discuss yet again the need of snapshots
> > for
> > > the
> > > > > UI
> > > > > > >> > > components used by the images. The images must be the end
> of
> > > the
> > > > > build
> > > > > > >> > > pipeline, where we aggregate every component we ship in a
> > > single
> > > > > > >> instance
> > > > > > >> > > to release. Yet, they are a core part of the cloud
> platform,
> > > hence
> > > > > > >> part of
> > > > > > >> > > the Operator BDD, testing, integration, and delivering.
> > > > > Intermediate
> > > > > > >> repos
> > > > > > >> > > can't depend on them unless they are also responsible for
> > > > > maintenance
> > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > >> > > release like what we're doing with the consoles.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Also, the images can have a respin anytime we need a new
> > > component
> > > > > > >> bump. We
> > > > > > >> > > do this all the time to fix CVEs or bug fixes in a
> specific
> > > > > component
> > > > > > >> that
> > > > > > >> > > is part of the image.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > The devui can be developed and maintained within the
> > kie-tools
> > > > > repo
> > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > >> > > have tests that verify that component. The integration
> will
> > be
> > > > > made
> > > > > > >> on the
> > > > > > >> > > Images/Operator side once we grab a latest snapshot.
> > > > > Alternatively,
> > > > > > >> we can
> > > > > > >> > > do:
> > > > > > >> > > 1. The tools CI can fetch a template image, inject the
> > > component,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >> run
> > > > > > >> > > the required tests
> > > > > > >> > > 2. The image/operator CI can fetch and build the UI
> > > components and
> > > > > > >> run the
> > > > > > >> > > integration tests
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Also, regarding point "4. Review the PR GHA checks to
> run
> > > CLI
> > > > > tests
> > > > > > >> > > once there's a change in the cmd module" of the proposed
> > > EPIC, I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > >> > > we might run into problems, since the `cmd` module also
> > > depends
> > > > > on the
> > > > > > >> > > `api` and `workflowproj` modules of
> > > `kogito-serverless-operator.`
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > >> > > afraid changes made to these two modules would also need
> to
> > > > > trigger a
> > > > > > >> > > build of the `cmd` module, and they can potentially break
> > it.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Sorry to not get into details there, but the new cmd
> module
> > > will
> > > > > be
> > > > > > >> part of
> > > > > > >> > > the Operator's workspace, any changes in any cross
> > > dependencies
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> will
> > > > > > >> > > trigger the CI checks, as we are doing today in the
> builder
> > > and
> > > > > > >> > > workflowproj modules. It will be way easier to maintain
> the
> > > CLI.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > These considerations alone, IMHO, expose one of the
> > biggest
> > > > > > >> challenges
> > > > > > >> > > we have in our community right now, which is that the
> > > definition
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >> > > implementation of the dependency graph between
> > > > > repos/modules/packages
> > > > > > >> > > is currently spread across many different "build systems",
> > > like
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > > new proposed GHA jobs exclusive to the
> > > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > > >> > > repo, the Build Chain system we have for the Drools/Kogito
> > > repos,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > > `kie-tools` CI, and the many Jenkins jobs we have on
> > Apache's
> > > > > Jenkins.
> > > > > > >> > > There's also the fact that we have `kogito-images`
> > selectively
> > > > > > >> > > building parts of `kogito-apps` during its own build to
> > > include
> > > > > them
> > > > > > >> > > in the images it produces.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > I agree. We would need to sit together and solve this as a
> > > team,
> > > > > > >> having a
> > > > > > >> > > nice integration across every repo. The kogito-images
> > building
> > > > > parts
> > > > > > >> of the
> > > > > > >> > > apps is something we currently working on, IIRC. The apps
> > will
> > > > > deploy
> > > > > > >> a
> > > > > > >> > > snapshot as part of the nightlies and the images will be
> > > using it.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > I just think it is important to highlight that this
> > proposal
> > > > > would
> > > > > > >> > > only address a LOCAL problem related exclusively to the
> > > SonataFlow
> > > > > > >> > > section of the Apache KIE community, while, at the same
> > time,
> > > not
> > > > > > >> > > contributing to reducing the segmentation of the Apache
> KIE
> > > > > community
> > > > > > >> > > as a whole.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Yes, the proposal is to starting addressing the local
> Apache
> > > KIE
> > > > > > >> SonataFlow
> > > > > > >> > > Cloud platform first. But I agree that we need to refactor
> > > our CI
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > >> > > whole, which is something we should start in a new thread.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Cheers!
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 10:02 PM Tiago Bento <
> > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Zanini and Alex,
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > The task we agreed on for after releasing Apache KIE 10
> is
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1040.
> > > It
> > > > > only
> > > > > > >> > > > describes deleting the temporary copies we'll have on
> KIE
> > > Tools
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >> > > > reverting things back to where they were, using the
> fixed
> > > 10.0.0
> > > > > > >> > > > version.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Moving `kn-plugin-workflow` and the
> > > > > `kogito-swf-{devmode,builder}`
> > > > > > >> > > > images to `kogito-serverless-operator` would be a new
> > move,
> > > > > which I
> > > > > > >> > > > understand is the scope of this proposal thread.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Doing so, however, will make
> `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > depend on
> > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools`, since the SonataFlow Quarkus Dev UI is
> hosted
> > > there
> > > > > > >> now,
> > > > > > >> > > > and it is a dependency of the `kogito-swf-devmode`
> image.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > I'm saying this because I think we need to further
> discuss
> > > the
> > > > > > >> > > > consequences of this change...
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > The `kie-tools` CI is not prepared to build
> > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`, so the way
> > > > > > >> `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > > >> > > > references the SonataFlow Quarkus Dev UI will be
> important
> > > to
> > > > > > >> > > > establish the boundaries between both repos. To further
> > > develop
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > > > SonataFlow Quarkus Dev UI and have its changes reflect
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-swf-devmode` image, we need to come up with a
> > > strategy
> > > > > that
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> > > > both safe, consistent, and enforces correctness. There's
> > > also
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> fact
> > > > > > >> > > > that currently `kie-tools` depends on timestamped
> > SNAPSHOTs
> > > of
> > > > > > >> > > > Kogito/Drools, while `kogito-serverless-operator` uses
> > > > > 999-SNAPSHOT,
> > > > > > >> > > > if I'm not mistaken. Can you elaborate a little bit more
> > on
> > > how
> > > > > you
> > > > > > >> > > > see this reference being done? Please consider
> cross-repo
> > > PRs
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> big
> > > > > > >> > > > migrations like the Quarkus 3.8.4 that is currently
> > > happening.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Also, regarding point "4. Review the PR GHA checks to
> run
> > > CLI
> > > > > tests
> > > > > > >> > > > once there's a change in the cmd module" of the proposed
> > > EPIC, I
> > > > > > >> think
> > > > > > >> > > > we might run into problems, since the `cmd` module also
> > > depends
> > > > > on
> > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > >> > > > `api` and `workflowproj` modules of
> > > > > `kogito-serverless-operator.`
> > > > > > >> I'm
> > > > > > >> > > > afraid changes made to these two modules would also need
> > to
> > > > > trigger
> > > > > > >> a
> > > > > > >> > > > build of the `cmd` module, and they can potentially
> break
> > > it.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > These considerations alone, IMHO, expose one of the
> > biggest
> > > > > > >> challenges
> > > > > > >> > > > we have in our community right now, which is that the
> > > > > definition and
> > > > > > >> > > > implementation of the dependency graph between
> > > > > > >> repos/modules/packages
> > > > > > >> > > > is currently spread across many different "build
> systems",
> > > like
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> > > > new proposed GHA jobs exclusive to the
> > > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`
> > > > > > >> > > > repo, the Build Chain system we have for the
> Drools/Kogito
> > > > > repos,
> > > > > > >> the
> > > > > > >> > > > `kie-tools` CI, and the many Jenkins jobs we have on
> > > Apache's
> > > > > > >> Jenkins.
> > > > > > >> > > > There's also the fact that we have `kogito-images`
> > > selectively
> > > > > > >> > > > building parts of `kogito-apps` during its own build to
> > > include
> > > > > them
> > > > > > >> > > > in the images it produces.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > With all that said, I'm not opposed to moving the
> > > > > > >> `kn-workflow-plugin`
> > > > > > >> > > > package from `kie-tools` to the `cmd` module of
> > > > > > >> > > > `kogito-serverless-operator`. In fact, like I said in
> the
> > > past,
> > > > > I
> > > > > > >> > > > think it makes a lot of sense that they're part of the
> > same
> > > > > > >> > > > compilation unit, as they're very closely related, and
> > > should
> > > > > > >> > > > therefore be in sync at all times.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > I just think it is important to highlight that this
> > proposal
> > > > > would
> > > > > > >> > > > only address a LOCAL problem related exclusively to the
> > > > > SonataFlow
> > > > > > >> > > > section of the Apache KIE community, while, at the same
> > > time,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > >> > > > contributing to reducing the segmentation of the Apache
> > KIE
> > > > > > >> community
> > > > > > >> > > > as a whole.
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Regards,
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > Tiago Bento
> > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 4:08 PM ricardo zanini fernandes
> > > > > > >> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > Alex,
> > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > Yes, in the proposal we just barely outlined. I create
> > the
> > > > > EPIC
> > > > > > >> to have
> > > > > > >> > > > > more details and start working on them as soon as we
> > > agree.
> > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 4:24 PM Alex Porcelli <
> > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you for outlining the tasks post the 10.x
> > release.
> > > > > It's
> > > > > > >> > > > > > important to note that these are already included in
> > the
> > > > > amended
> > > > > > >> > > > > > proposal [1], specifically in steps 9 and 10, which
> > the
> > > > > > >> community has
> > > > > > >> > > > > > voted on. If there are concerns about the execution
> of
> > > these
> > > > > > >> steps,
> > > > > > >> > > > > > I'd like to reassure you that they will proceed as
> > > planned,
> > > > > in
> > > > > > >> > > > > > compliance with Apache guidelines.
> > > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > Looking ahead, after the release of version 10, we
> > > already
> > > > > > >> agreed that
> > > > > > >> > > > > > we'll need to have a thorough discussion regarding
> the
> > > > > codebase
> > > > > > >> > > > > > structure. This will allow us to refine our
> > > understanding
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > >> > > > > > sub-brands, their interrelationships, and their
> > > strategic
> > > > > > >> positioning.
> > > > > > >> > > > > > I agree that this is crucial for our next steps and
> > look
> > > > > > >> forward to
> > > > > > >> > > > > > our collaborative efforts in shaping this.
> > > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > [1] -
> > > > > > >>
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/pw327lkpmy9gxklq4t5zbwzxjo2y3c0w
> > > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 2:50 PM ricardo zanini
> > fernandes
> > > > > > >> > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I've outlined the tasks we need once we release
> 10.x
> > > from
> > > > > > >> kie-tools:
> > > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1102
> > > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Once we release, we can detail this planning and
> > start
> > > > > > >> working on it
> > > > > > >> > > > to
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > have a streamlined process for the next release.
> > > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Please let me know if it makes sense to you. We
> can
> > > break
> > > > > > >> down and
> > > > > > >> > > > detail
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > the tasks once we agree on this initial plan.
> > > > > > >> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Cheers!
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Ricardo Zanini Fernandes
> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Vida longa e próspera.
> > > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > > >>
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