Thank you, Toshiya! This is very helpful, but my concern is that it feels that we are back almost 20 years ago, just before we introduce RulesFlow.
On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at 4:00 AM Toshiya Kobayashi <[email protected]> wrote: > > > could you share how users can accomplish the same with the current state > of the technology? > > Here are examples to demonstrate migration from drl + bpmn in 7.74.0.Final > (Ex-ruleflow-bpmn-7.74) to only drl in 10.0.0 (Ex-ruleflow-drl-10.0). > > https://github.com/tkobayas/kiegroup-examples/tree/master/Ex-ruleflow-migration > > We can manage ruleFlowGroup with drl. I also added a small util class for > convenience (Utils.java). > > This is something like what I wrote as "C) Just guide how to migrate > ruleflow to drl and java code." > > The Sample-ruleflow.drl looks a little verbose, but not too bad, I think. > > ruleflow with conditions) > https://github.com/tkobayas/kiegroup-examples/blob/master/Ex-ruleflow-migration/Ex-ruleflow-drl-10.0/src/main/resources/com/sample/Sample-ruleflow.drl > > ruleflow without conditions) > https://github.com/tkobayas/kiegroup-examples/blob/master/Ex-ruleflow-migration/Ex-ruleflow-drl-simple-10.0/src/main/resources/com/sample/Sample-ruleflow.drl > > Toshiya > > On Fri, Jan 17, 2025 at 1:49 AM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > > > The only reason working memory exists in BPMN is to be used in > > conditional nodes which does not make much sense IMO. (the replacement > > for java conditional was already on the way) > > This was dropped at some point in kogito (don't know the reasons why) > > but makes sense as working memory access does not make sense from the > > workflow engine. > > How to orchestrate something like you are referring is more rule engine > > side. > > > > El jue, 16 ene 2025 a las 17:05, Tibor Zimányi (<[email protected]>) > > escribió: > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > I think the orchestration could be done with rule units instead of using > > a > > > BPMN process to orchestrate the rule execution. However maybe I am > > missing > > > some context about rule units and I am wrong. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Tibor > > > > > > > > > > > > Dňa št 16. 1. 2025, 15:40 Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> > > napísal(a): > > > > > > > Thank you Toshiya for the reference. > > > > > > > > Let me step back ignoring kjar and etc... and ask: could you share how > > > > users can accomplish the same with the current state of the > > > > technology? > > > > > > > > Use case description: > > > > As a user, I need - using java api - add thousands of objects to > > > > working memory and orchestrate 4 or 5 different ruleflow groups and, > > > > at the end of the execution, access the working memory and iterate > > > > over the working memory content. > > > > > > > > - > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 4:32 AM Toshiya Kobayashi > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ah, thanks, > > > > > > > > > > This one: > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/t3o842mbj03c57cg5yw3tmo25qf2br1t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 6:15 PM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi toshiya > > > > > > Search in *this* list drop legacy runtime in workflow. It is a > > > > proposal. > > > > > > > > > > > > El mié, 15 ene 2025, 9:47, Toshiya Kobayashi < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I searched https://groups.google.com/g/kogito-development , but > > I > > > > cannot > > > > > > > find the discussion about kjar. Anyway, Kogito hasn't supported > > kjar > > > > from > > > > > > > the beginning, so it's a very old story. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having said that, options seem to be: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A) Create a small subset of bpmn parser and engine (apart from > > the > > > > kogito > > > > > > > bpmn code base), which aims at only ruleflow (Start, End, Rule, > > > > Gateway). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pros: Users can use the existing bpmn editor to author ruleflow > > > > bpmn > > > > > > > files. > > > > > > > No need for a migration tool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cons: It will likely have some duplication with the kogito bpmn > > > > code > > > > > > > base. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > B) Create a new feature to support ruleflow. e.g. only changing > > > > > > > ruleflow-group with/without conditions. It may or may not be > > like .rf > > > > > > file > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Note: This option's pros and cons are ambiguous as the > > details > > > > are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > yet defined > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pros: The implementation may be smaller than bpmn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cons: Developing a migration tool would require some effort. > > (or no > > > > > > > migration tool) > > > > > > > Developing an authoring UI tool would require some > > effort. > > > > (or no > > > > > > > authoring tool) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > C) Just guide how to migrate ruleflow to drl and java code. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pros: No additional development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cons: Probably it's not possible to create a migration tool. > > It may > > > > > > > require a large effort if a user has lots of ruleflows > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toshiya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 6:13 PM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez < > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > > > At the moment we dropped support for legacy runtime kjar is > > not a > > > > > > > supported > > > > > > > > scenario in workflow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El vie, 10 ene 2025, 17:24, Jason Porter > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think however this ends up being decided by this list, we > > > > should > > > > > > > post a > > > > > > > > > conclusion/example/summary/something to the > > [email protected] > > > > > > > <mailto: > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> list so anyone search that list can > > see > > > > the > > > > > > > > results. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somewhat related to that, do we want to try to migrate people > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Google Groups list to the users list now that 10.0.0 is > > released? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Jason Porter > > > > > > > > > Software Engineer > > > > > > > > > He/Him/His > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IBM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, January 10, 2025 at 01:41 > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [DISCUSSION] ruleflow kjar use case > > > > > > > > > Thank you, Toshiya, for bringing this up to ML. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For context, I’d like to remember that there are no Drools or > > > > jBPM; > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > are components of Apache KIE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As of today, Apache KIE 10 supports kjar; Toshiya's example > > > > proves > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > Therefore, this could be considered a bug, not a new use > > case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Enrique, regarding parity between runtimes, it’s not > > necessary to > > > > > > > provide > > > > > > > > > the same level of feature support for all of them, so the > > scope > > > > of > > > > > > rule > > > > > > > > > flow could be narrowed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I believe we can’t do is be dysfunctional and force > > drops of > > > > > > major > > > > > > > > > features after a major release without a proper heads-up or > > an > > > > > > > > alternative > > > > > > > > > path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 12:10 AM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez < > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi toshiya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kjar is not supported in workflow as the main focus is > > codegen. > > > > > > > > > > Supporting in memory compilation would lead us to support > > two > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > > > runtimes and integration with drools. > > > > > > > > > > At this point it might be working because the legacy > > runtime is > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > but any attempt to support this in kogito will get pushed > > back > > > > as > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > removing thr old runtime therefore kjar wont work. There > > are > > > > > > several > > > > > > > > > > reasons for it. From how big the effort would be to parity > > > > features > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > > runtimes. > > > > > > > > > > So the answer is no. We should not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El vie, 10 ene 2025, 4:20, Toshiya Kobayashi < > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since Drools 8, in other words, since jBPM was moved into > > > > Kogito, > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ruleflow (drl + bpmn) kjar use case has been dropped, > > because > > > > > > > Kogito > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't support kjar. A user is facing a migration > > problem ( > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://kie.zulipchat.com/#narrow/channel/232677-drools/topic/Errors.20when.20moving.20from.20last.20Drools.207.20release.20to.20drools.208 > > > > > > > > > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combinations may sound confusing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - drl + bpmn in kogito service is supported. (See > > > > > > > > > process-quarkus-example > > > > > > > > > > > in incubator-kie-kogito-examples) > > > > > > > > > > > - drl in kjar is supported (See kie-maven-plugin in > > > > > > > > > incubator-kie-drools) > > > > > > > > > > > - drl + bpmn in kjar is the topic of this thread > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I created an example with KIE 10.0.0 + drl + bpmn + kjar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/tkobayas/kiegroup-examples/tree/master/Ex-ruleflow-10.0.0 > > > > > > > > > > > (Adding org.kie.kogito:jbpm-bpmn2 dependency) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ``` > > > > > > > > > > > mvn clean install -DskipTests > > > > > > > > > > > mvn test > > > > > > > > > > > ``` > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems to work fine so far. (It has an issue with > > "import" > > > > > > > > handling, > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > I worked around it using FQCN. It's another story...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having said that, shall we revitalize the ruleflow kjar > > use > > > > case? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think of these points: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Confirm the supported scope : No persistence. Limited > > > > nodes > > > > > > > > (Start, > > > > > > > > > > End, > > > > > > > > > > > Rule, Gateway?) > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Consult jbpm developers because the new jbpm has been > > > > targeted > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > kogito service use cases (= requires quarkus or > > springboot, > > > > and > > > > > > > > depends > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > codegen. Am I correct?). Any caveats to support kjar? > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Create test cases in kogito-runtimes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Especially, about 2... Any concern about supporting kjar > > with > > > > > > jbpm > > > > > > > (= > > > > > > > > > > > org.kie.kogito:jbpm-bpmn2)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > Toshiya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Saludos, Enrique González Martínez :) > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
