+1 While voting +1 I'm also a bit worried having more dependencies in kie- tools but I understand how this change can help maturing and releasing. I would give a small suggestion giving the "Phase 1" steps a time to allow discover issues (eg. GHA limits, bandwidth...)
On Tue, 2025-02-04 at 09:45 +0200, Toni Rikkola wrote: > +1 > First of all, the changes here take us to the next release and > towards > maturing. So unless someone else can offer the same results, I can't > really > vote against this. > I also have other reasoning for why +1, but discussion for this has > ended. > I will reconsider the vote if a countering proposal shows up. > > Toni > > On Tue, Feb 4, 2025 at 1:09 AM Jason Porter <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Please let me amend my previous email, and add in some explanation. > > > > From an outside contributor perspective, we're broken. We are the > > Apache > > KIE project. Now that project has multiple sub areas (I won't call > > them > > projects) that were at one point separate, but are now considered > > one. We > > have Drools, Kogito/jBPM, OptaPlanner, Sonataflow, tooling (which > > itself > > has three different parts Chrome, VS Code, and Stand Alone) and > > supporting > > repos (docs, website, CI/CD, etc.). If I want to contribute > > something to > > Kogito one has to work in kogito-runtimes, maybe kogito-apps, maybe > > docs, > > maybe website, maybe examples, and maybe drools because of the > > interdependencies of each project. Each one of these repositories > > has its > > own getting started and setup. Maybe it is Java and Maven, maybe > > it's the > > whole kie-tools stack, maybe it is antora or the website stack, > > just > > depends on what you need to do. > > > > Once you have that all setup, you can then do the work and submit > > your > > PR(s). If that PR spans multiple repositories, they'll have to tie > > them all > > together so the team can take them all in as a whole. The > > contributor also > > needs to wait for CI to run, which may or may not run green. It's > > been a > > bit since we've had a fully green run on everything, which may make > > it seem > > like the contributor has done something wrong. That may not be the > > case, it > > might be something else down stream in the CI run that is off, even > > if the > > PR is only in one repository. > > > > This is a difficult first experience for a new contributor. I think > > this > > is broken. It doesn't lead to a good first impression of the > > project. > > > > I know we've beaten this idea many times about where to put things, > > how to > > do it, etc. Regardless of what anyone's preferred tool, repo > > strategy, or > > methodology is, please look at this project as a whole and think > > about how > > it is viewed as someone coming in fresh from the outside. > > > > As for my vote: I am modifying it to a +1 for moving things > > forward, and a > > 0 for how we get there. We need to be able to move forward. > > > > On 2025/02/03 19:51:03 Jason Porter wrote: > > > I'm a little confused why we're calling a vote at the same time > > > we're > > submitting a new proposal. Is it to simply move things along? I > > doubt we'll > > make everyone happy with this proposal, however it plays out, but > > this > > seems like it should be more of a discussion thread instead of a > > vote until > > we've addressed issues that are brought up. > > > > > > As far as they methodology for getting to releasable docs and > > > website, I > > honestly don't care which way we go, where we do the work, or how > > it gets > > done as long it is a sane process. I don't want to have to check > > five > > different places to make sure it works, submit three different pull > > requests to related things, and hope we have a green CI build > > (which we > > rarely do) for basic changes. However, that is the current way of > > doing > > things, even if I personally think it is broken, it has been > > working (sort > > of) for a while. > > > > > > If we're going to move forward with this being a vote: +0 for me. > > > > > > On 2025/02/03 16:30:00 Alex Porcelli wrote: > > > > Given the recent discussions about Docs [1] and Examples [2], > > > > Tiago > > > > Bento and I got together to write, in proposal form, the > > > > combination > > > > of our understanding of how we can create the baseline for > > > > content > > > > (Docs, Examples, and Websites) so that our users can consume > > > > Apache > > > > KIE releases in an expected, structured, and cohesive way. This > > > > proposal will take you < 15 min to read. > > > > > > > > - > > > > Alex & Tiago > > > > > > > > # Problem scope > > > > > > > > There has been a significant demand for proper guidance on > > > > using > > > > Apache KIE 10.0. Users are unsure how to adopt it, as neither > > > > Documentation nor Examples were available when 10.0.0 was > > > > released. An > > > > attempt to manually adjust the examples to the 10.0.0 release > > > > has > > > > happened for a couple of weeks now, showing how time-consuming > > > > it is > > > > to defer dealing with “satellite” repositories after releases > > > > are > > > > done. Even more complicated is that well-known websites > > > > (drools.org, > > > > jbpm.org, kogito.kie.org) are outdated and out of sync with > > > > Apache > > > > KIE’s repositories and releases, thus contributing to more > > > > confusion > > > > than anything else. > > > > > > > > To avoid being unclear about why Docs, Examples, and Websites > > > > are > > > > crucial for the community's success, they are all entry points > > > > where > > > > new users can start understanding Apache KIE, how to use it and > > > > whether or not it’s a fit for them. For existing users, they > > > > are all > > > > reference material, including code snippets, institutional > > > > texts > > > > and/or vision, licenses, migration guides, and legal material. > > > > Examples, in particular, also work as playgrounds, where users > > > > can > > > > start with pre-built applications and make minor tweaks to > > > > either > > > > check if something they want is supported or simulate a > > > > development > > > > workflow on a smaller scale. Our code is worth close to nothing > > > > if > > > > there isn’t good supporting material around it. > > > > > > > > This proposal aims to amend all those problems by bringing > > > > Docs, > > > > Examples, and Websites to the Release Procedure, PR checks, and > > > > a > > > > Continuous deployment (CD) mechanism, making them all be part > > > > of our > > > > daily contributions, so they are not treated as afterthoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > # What is not in scope > > > > > > > > - A complete restructuring of all Apache KIE repositories > > > > - Refactoring the whole CI; this proposal aims to work with the > > > > current established CI already in place > > > > - Refactor content in Docs and Example applications; this > > > > proposal > > > > aims to move stuff as-is, except when something is broken, then > > > > we’ll > > > > fix it. > > > > - Revisit all Examples to check or validate whether they are > > > > fully > > > > functional. This is an important review that must be done > > > > incrementally. > > > > - Retroactively adjust the 10.0.x branch to include Docs, > > > > Examples, > > > > and Websites. > > > > - Provide a new blogging framework for Apache KIE in > > > > replacement for > > > > https://blog.kie.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > # The proposal > > > > > > > > - The Apache KIE website gains a new section called "Docs" in > > > > its > > > > header, where users are able to select what stream of the Docs > > > > they > > > > want to see, for example: "Docs" -> "10.1.x" -> "Drools"; or > > > > "Docs" -> > > > > "10.2.x" -> "SonataFlow" etc. > > > > - A new read-only repository called `incubator-kie-examples` is > > > > created, containing all examples aligned with development > > > > stream > > > > branches, and releases candidates and releases tags. > > > > - A new release artifact (Examples ZIP) starts existing, and > > > > its > > > > contents then published to the read-only `incubator-kie- > > > > examples` > > > > repository. > > > > - The existing `incubator-kogito-examples` repository is > > > > archived > > > > after 10.1 is first released. > > > > - A new Continuous Deployment (CD) mechanism is created to > > > > ensure Docs > > > > and Websites are kept current. > > > > > > > > > > > > # The method > > > > > > > > Leverage `kie-tools` flexible build system to reduce complexity > > > > hidden > > > > in Jenkins/GitHub Actions automations, which have proven to > > > > become > > > > unmaintained and abandoned, by moving content (preserving Git > > > > history) > > > > from all Docs-, Examples-, and Websites-related repositories > > > > into new > > > > packages on `kie-tools`. Here’s the final structure this > > > > proposal aims > > > > to create inside the `kie-tools` repository: > > > > > > > > - kie-tools/docs/drools > > > > - kie-tools/docs/optaplanner > > > > - kie-tools/docs/jbpm > > > > - kie-tools/docs/kogito > > > > - kie-tools/docs/sonataflow > > > > - kie-tools/docs/tools > > > > - kie-tools/websites/kie-apache-org > > > > - kie-tools/examples/rules-* > > > > - kie-tools/examples/decisions-* > > > > - kie-tools/examples/process-* > > > > - kie-tools/examples/sonataflow-* > > > > - kie-tools/examples/pmml-* > > > > - kie-tools/examples/trusty-* > > > > > > > > For each example package, Spring Boot, Quarkus, and plain Java > > > > subdivisions would be done inside each example using different > > > > Maven > > > > modules. This would allow users to focus on the domain rather > > > > than the > > > > framework/implementation and avoid content duplication in > > > > READMEs. > > > > > > > > Being inside `kie-tools`, Examples would be able to benefit > > > > from > > > > graphical Editors, Runtime Consoles, Quarkus Dev UIs, and > > > > Container > > > > images, all crucial components for end-to-end solutions built > > > > with > > > > Apache KIE. This is currently impossible in the current > > > > `kogito-examples` repository due to the way our PR checks and > > > > releases > > > > are structured/automated, where `kogito-examples` builds before > > > > `kie-tools`. Making `kogito-examples` build after `kie-tools` > > > > for PR > > > > checks is non-trivial and completely out-of-scope of this > > > > proposal, as > > > > it would mean doubling-down on the existing CI systems like > > > > “build-chain” for PR checks and “the Kogito framework” on > > > > Apache > > > > Jenkins, both inherently wasteful on cross-repo PR checks and > > > > provenly > > > > hard to maintain/operate. > > > > > > > > Contributions to the proposed new packages would be made > > > > following the > > > > same commands we already use for all other packages on `kie- > > > > tools`. > > > > Contributors would need to have `pnpm` and Node.js installed or > > > > rely > > > > on Devbox to install everything automatically. After setting up > > > > the > > > > environment, cloning the repo, and running `pnpm bootstrap -F > > > > '@kie-docs/drools’ && pnpm -F @kie-docs/drools start` > > > > contributors > > > > would be able to develop the Drools documentation with live- > > > > reload > > > > capabilities. The very same would be true for Website(s). > > > > > > > > For the Examples applications, the process after cloning would > > > > be: > > > > > > > > 1. `pnpm bootstrap -F @kie-examples/some-example-app...` to > > > > install > > > > 3rd party dependencies and link packages. > > > > 2. `pnpm -F @kie-examples/some-example-app^... build:dev` to > > > > build > > > > this example’s 1st party dependencies. > > > > 3. `pnpm -F @kie-examples/some-example-app start` to start the > > > > example > > > > in its default mode. > > > > > > > > Each example is also encouraged to define in their README how > > > > to start > > > > itself using technology-specific commands, like `mvn > > > > quarkus:dev > > > > -Psome-profile` or even `docker-compose up`. The `start` script > > > > is > > > > only the default way to run an example, a convention already > > > > cohesive > > > > with all other existing packages on `kie-tools`. > > > > > > > > It’s important to note again that the `pnpm` commands would not > > > > be > > > > necessary in the `incubator-kie-examples` repository and users > > > > would > > > > be able to run plain `mvn` commands directly inside the > > > > example’s > > > > directory, for Maven-based examples at least. > > > > > > > > > > > > #### Impact on PR checks (CI) > > > > > > > > Each new package will contain a `package.json` file describing > > > > scripts > > > > and their dependency relationship with other packages in the > > > > repository. The important scripts are `build:dev`, > > > > `build:prod`, and > > > > `start`, to integrate them with the existing build system. > > > > > > > > PRs changing exclusively Docs packages will NOT build anything > > > > else in > > > > the repository, making PR checks efficient. The same is true > > > > for > > > > websites. > > > > > > > > PRs changing example applications will only build their > > > > dependency > > > > tree and the modified example applications, excluding unrelated > > > > packages from the checks while enforcing correctness. This is > > > > already > > > > how `kie-tools` works. > > > > > > > > If you need more information on how this mechanism works in > > > > practice, > > > > please come forward with clarifying questions. We’d love to > > > > show you > > > > how the partial and partitioned PR checks work on `kie-tools`. > > > > > > > > > > > > #### Impact on Release Process (“CI”) > > > > > > > > Docs and Websites wouldn’t be release artifacts and would be > > > > handled > > > > by a new “Continuous deployment (CD)” mechanism. This is > > > > covered in > > > > the next section of this proposal. > > > > > > > > With that said, only one new release artifact is being proposed > > > > here. > > > > A ZIP file containing all examples, stripping out all > > > > `kie-tools`-related boilerplate used to develop them. This new > > > > artifact (Examples ZIP) would be published to a new read-only > > > > repository (incubator-kie-examples) for all release candidates > > > > and > > > > releases we do. This repository would be THE consumable > > > > repository for > > > > users who wish to go straight to the point when testing out > > > > Apache KIE > > > > and who are not necessarily committers/developers. > > > > > > > > To do that, changing some release automations to add a new job > > > > that > > > > builds and publishes the Examples ZIP would be necessary: > > > > > > > > 1. Daily-dev ( > > https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/KIE/job/kie-tools/job/main/job/kie-tools-daily-dev-publish/ > > ) > > > > 2. Release Candidates > > > > ( > > https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/KIE/job/kie-tools/job/main/job/release/job/kie-tools-release-candidate/ > > ) > > > > 3. Release Promote > > > > ( > > https://ci-builds.apache.org/job/KIE/job/kie-tools/job/main/job/release/job/kie-tools-release-promote/ > > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > #### New Continuous Deployment (CD) > > > > > > > > Websites and Docs would be treated as continually deployed > > > > packages > > > > for the development stream we declare as “live”. Also, old > > > > development > > > > streams would be continually built and published to make > > > > documentation > > > > updates possible for older versions. Referring to Toshiya's > > > > thread on > > > > documentation [1], our Docs would be “mutable”, and the > > > > granularity > > > > would be “per stream”. > > > > > > > > Two new automations would be created for making sure our > > > > content is > > > > up-to-date at all times: > > > > > > > > `publish-kie-apache-org-website`: Responsible for updating live > > > > Apache > > > > KIE’s website (https://kie.apache.org) and also capable of > > > > generating > > > > ad-hoc immutable copies of the website for Release Candidates. > > > > It > > > > would be able to also be executed for the `main` stream for > > > > development purposes. > > > > > > > > `publish-older-docs-to-live-website` ensures that older > > > > development > > > > streams can have their content updated on the live website. For > > > > example, if we find a seriously incorrect statement in an older > > > > version, this job would ensure it’s published after being > > > > fixed. We > > > > can eventually remove this for versions that become too old. > > > > > > > > > > > > # Actionable items (plan) > > > > > > > > Phase 1 (Development and contributions): > > > > > > > > - Move all examples to `kie-tools`, already in the new > > > > structure/organization, and integrate them as part of the build > > > > system > > > > - Move all documentation content to `kie-tools` and integrate > > > > the > > > > new packages as part of the build system > > > > - Move `incubator-kie-website` content to `kie-tools` and > > > > integrate > > > > it as part of the build system > > > > - Create new landing pages for each major component: Drools, > > > > jBPM, > > > > SonataFlow, Optaplanner, and Kogito. > > > > > > > > Phase 2 (Release Process) > > > > > > > > - Create the `incubator-kie-examples` repository > > > > - Update `kie-tools` daily-dev job to publish the Examples ZIP > > > > to > > > > `incubator-kie-examples@main` > > > > - Update `kie-tools` Release Candidate job to publish the > > > > Examples > > > > ZIP to https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/kie/ > > > > - Update `kie-tools` Release Promote job to publish the > > > > Examples ZIP > > > > content to incubator-kie-examples@{version}` > > > > - Archive the `incubator-kie-kogito-examples` repository (post > > > > 10.1 > > release) > > > > - Update the Release Procedure for 10.1 to include Docs, > > > > Examples, > > > > and Websites where necessary > > > > > > > > Phase 3 (Continuous deployments) > > > > > > > > - Create and configure new `publish-kie-apache-org-website` > > > > job > > > > - Create and configure new `publish-docs-to-live-website` job > > > > > > > > Phase 4 (Cleanup) > > > > > > > > - Depublish current `drools.org`, `jbpm.org`, > > > > `optaplanner.org`, > > > > `kie.org`, `sonataflow.org` and all its subdomains. > > > > - Redirect all old domains to the proper landing page of > > > > Apache KIE’s > > > > widely known components (E.g., https://drools.org → > > > > https://kie.apache.org/drools) > > > > - Preserve Docs from older versions somewhere accessible under > > > > Apache > > > > KIE’s website. > > > > > > > > > > > > # Commitment and rough timeline > > > > > > > > Alex Porcelli and Tiago Bento are fully committed to executing > > > > this > > > > plan in collaboration with other members who want to help. > > > > > > > > We are committed to working on it as soon as the proposal is > > > > approved. > > > > Although it’s hard to predict how long it will take, Phases 1, > > > > 2, and > > > > 3 will take around 6 weeks based on the information we have > > > > today. If > > > > anything changes or issues are found during execution, we can > > > > update > > > > this thread. > > > > > > > > Phase 4 is impossible to estimate, as there might be many > > > > different > > > > people and/or organizations to chase so that these websites can > > > > be > > > > decommissioned and properly forward users to KIE’s new home in > > > > Apache. > > > > > > > > > > > > # Observations on `kie-tools` > > > > > > > > This proposal makes Docs, Examples, and Websites available to > > > > all > > > > users without touching the complex, unmaintained, black-box > > > > systems > > > > currently in Apache’s Jenkins, known as “build-chain” and “the > > > > Kogito > > > > CI framework”. > > > > > > > > We know that `kie-tools` is not unanimously popular among > > > > Apache KIE > > > > committers, but it’s actively maintained and has been proven to > > > > scale > > > > well both in package count and technology diversity. We invite > > > > everyone to take a look at the repo’s User Manual at > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-tools/blob/main/repo/MANUAL.md > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Non-obvious positive outcomes > > > > > > > > - Drools and OptaPlanner repositories won’t have dependencies > > > > on > > > > JavaScript anymore. > > > > - Fonts and other “binary” files won’t need to be committed as > > > > a > > > > source anymore, as `kie-tools`’s build system can properly > > > > depend on > > > > NPM artifacts. Also helps towards graduation, as Category X > > > > dependencies won’t be present. > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/zjt156tk5zjw7463xsfdkojwzndwd1mn > > > > [2] > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/qc9vhod96mdoppo5ssj4f0pkqhzt4ghd > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------ > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
