Typo*, I meant deprecate vs. remove, which obviously cannot do. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:05 Marcus Eagan <[email protected]> wrote:
> Furthermore, just to be clear, I opened a discussion about deprecating and > not replacing schemaless mode for two reasons: > > (1) the pain it has inflicted on Solr users and reputation of Solr — > deprecation logs speak volumes. > (2) to get a better understanding of what engineers and others in the > community use Schemaless for to inform the design of its replacement. > > At no point would I argue that a feature like Schemaless is unnecessary. > It was the first way I used Solr (the second time around, the first time I > tried it I built my company using Elasticsearch because of other issues). I > am of the opinion that "Schemaless Mode" has done more harm to Solr than > good in my limited experience with the feature. Heck, *I've only been > consulting for a week and it has already come up*. I acknowledge a very > small sample size. > > I am curious as to your thoughts on these points. There are not lots of > people getting started with Solr today relative to the other solutions on > the market regardless of what you might assume. I am here to see if I can > change that through a shift in how we approach user experience and the > knowledge requisite to operate a production cluster. I hope no one takes > offense to me challenging how some community members think about what is a > good feature vs what is a bad one. > > Marcus > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:44 AM Marcus Eagan <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I know a person using it in production today. It's causing problems. They >> could abandon Solr altogether. It seems like a schema creation wizard is >> the right getting started motion if we know that schemaless doesn't do what >> people think it does. It's misleading. It's also a false representation of >> how easy it is to get started when compared to other solutions on the >> market. If schemaless is about support new use/adoption, it should actually >> help that more than hurt it. >> >> That's why I raised it. Re-branding this feature is like pig-lipsticking >> in my mind, but you all have more experience than me and are committers. I >> will defer to you for now. I am in favor on re-naming the feature as the >> minimum change that should happen. >> >> Schemaless mode makes sense in a world where schemas are largely opaque >> like IoT-telemetry or server logs. When you are searching data primarily >> for human consumption, I think it is just a headache in a bottle. In the >> cases of CSV and TSV, customers know the schema. I like to approach >> designing software such that no one ever needs to talk to me. No >> firefighting consulting is necessary, and you can skim the docs and proceed >> safely. I understand others may not feel that way, but it is the future of >> software. >> >> I encourage everyone here to try the newer search systems that have been >> released and are growing rapidly to inform your opinions on this topic. I >> am doing that because it is the concrete poured to build the common ground >> of the future. >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:40 AM Anshum Gupta <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> +1 Jason. >>> >>> Here's some context on how this came into being. >>> >>> Users find it difficult to understand and create a basic schema when >>> just trying out Solr. This mode was supposed to help them bootstrap, and >>> one they had a better understanding of how things worked, they'd tune it >>> before using the schema in production. >>> This did improve the OTB experience for new users, but a lot of people >>> abused this convenience and used this in production causing issues. >>> >>> As Jason mentioned, we'd better serve our users if we left this feature >>> for the getting started experience and add warnings (in UI and responses?) >>> so users would know what they are doing when they take this to production. >>> >>> This feature isn't trappy unless people use it in ways it was not >>> intended to be used in. We just need to warn and educate people better. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 10:41 AM Jason Gerlowski <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> > Is anyone on this list using schemaless mode in production or have >>>> you tried to? >>>> >>>> Schemaless mode is one of a group of Solr features present for >>>> convenience but not intended for production usage. It's in the same >>>> boat as "bin/post", and SolrCell, and others. These features do cause >>>> headaches when users ignore the documented restrictions and use them >>>> for more than prototyping. But at the same time they're super >>>> valuable for these sort of demo-ing or getting-started use cases. An >>>> easy getting-started experience is important, and schemaless et al >>>> serve a mostly positive role in that. >>>> >>>> I think we'd better serve our users if we left schemaless >>>> in/undeprecated, and instead focused on making it harder to >>>> (unknowingly) use them in ways contrary to community recommendations. >>>> Add louder warnings in the documentation (where not already present). >>>> Add warnings to the Solr logs the first time these features are used. >>>> Disable them by default (where that makes sense). Taken to the >>>> extreme, we could even add a section into Solr's response that lists >>>> non-production features used in serving a given request. >>>> >>>> There are lots of ways to address the "feature X is trappy" problem >>>> without removing X together. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:33 AM Marcus Eagan <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Community, >>>> > >>>> > There are many of us that have had to deal with the pain of managing >>>> the schemaless mode of operation in Solr. I'm curious to get others >>>> thoughts about how well it is working for them and if they would like to >>>> continue to use it. >>>> > >>>> > I for one don't think Schemaless works as intended and favor >>>> deprecating it and replacing it with some more usable but I am sure others >>>> have thoughts here. >>>> > >>>> > Is anyone on this list using schemaless mode in production or have >>>> you tried to? >>>> > >>>> > A preliminary discussion has occurred in this Jira ticket: >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-14701 >>>> > >>>> > Thank you all, >>>> > >>>> > Marcus Eagan >>>> > >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anshum Gupta >>> >> >> >> -- >> Marcus Eagan >> >> > > -- > Marcus Eagan > > -- Marcus Eagan
