And one more remark regarding "toy projects": You seriously mean that these numbers could be skewed by "toy projects"? IMHO toy projects, while most probably represented here, are "lost, like tears in the rain".
T On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 10:39 AM Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> wrote: > >> lot of java 21 tody is still PoC or toy projects > > Quarkus, TrinoDB or Eclipse are not toy projects. So they fact there ARE > "toy projects", you should not derive that "all Java 21 projects are toy > projects". > > T > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 10:32 AM Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibu...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> [joke]this last diagram looks like you are looking for piece[/] >> >> I'm not sure the weight can be linear like that, it is not because you are >> old that you will die - lot of java 21 tody is still PoC or toy projects >> so >> should be in the weight somehow if we go this way. >> >> Ultimately your user agent idea was really better than java stat alone >> since it is really a cross matrix/time unit we should check. >> >> Sadly all these stats miss, for my understanding, the dynamic behind (like >> seeing a random point in a exponential vs linear graph, alone you don't >> know where you are going to). >> >> From memory, trying to use the last years figures it seems the dynamic is >> to follow the LTS with some lateness, ie current is 21 but people are >> around 11-17. Like a sliding window. >> Indeed the public polls I use - the ones you get on twitter from intellij >> or friends - for that conclusion are biased cause they hit more "geeks" >> than standard work people but I don't have anything better right now in >> terms of time serie. >> Anyone has more comparative data about that? >> >> My proposal/thought was really to align on that dynamic - from the latest >> to a limit to cover ~>=65% of people - more than fixing some version in >> stone. >> >> Romain Manni-Bucau >> @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog >> <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog >> <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github < >> https://github.com/rmannibucau> | >> LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book >> < >> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance >> > >> >> >> Le jeu. 22 févr. 2024 à 10:17, Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> a >> écrit : >> >> > For start I "normalized" the Java strings to a form like "Java 8" or >> "Java >> > 17". This resulted in pretty much similar results as Romain PDF (Azul >> > report). >> > >> > But then realized, we should consider this: Not every LTS existed at the >> > same time span (and we discuss the future here, not the past). Here is >> some >> > history I collected: >> > >> > - Java 8: Covers strings like "Java 1.8.0-25" (2014) to "Java 1.8.0-401" >> > (2024), that is 10 year span. >> > - Java 11: Covers strings like "Java 11-ea" (2018) to "Java 11.0.22" >> > (2024), that is a 6 year span. >> > - Java 17: Covers strings like "Java 17-ea" (2021) to "Java 17.0.10" >> > (2024), that is a 3 year span. >> > - Java 21: Covers strings like "Java 21-ea" (2023) to "Java 21.0.2" >> (2024), >> > that is 1 year span. >> > >> > So, "normalized" and "weighted" (by lifespan) results are these: >> > https://gist.github.com/cstamas/d2e5560f24ebe6a667834aa1f44d6fc1 >> > >> > Weighted pie immediately shows which Java versions are "dead" (are >> present, >> > but are "sliding out") and which ones are "alive and kicking" (and >> adoption >> > is quite high). >> > >> > --- >> > >> > Refs: >> > - https://www.java.com/releases/ >> > - https://openjdk.org/projects/jdk/11/ >> > - https://openjdk.org/projects/jdk/17/ >> > - https://openjdk.org/projects/jdk/21/ >> > >> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 8:50 AM Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > Howdy, >> > > >> > > Maven UA is created like this: >> > > >> > > >> > >> https://github.com/apache/maven/blob/master/maven-core/src/main/java/org/apache/maven/internal/aether/DefaultRepositorySystemSessionFactory.java#L555 >> > > >> > > I was hoping also for a list of "Apache Maven ..." lines with >> occurrence >> > > count. >> > > >> > > Now am unsure, for example if any other tool would use "Java X" >> string in >> > > its own UA, is that collected here? >> > > >> > > But let's cook with what we have :) >> > > >> > > T >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2024, 08:03 Mateusz Gajewski < >> > > mateusz.gajew...@starburstdata.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Do you have maven version and java version at the same time report? I >> > >> wonder if old maven is used with old JDK :) >> > >> >> > >> On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 23:23 Brian Fox <bri...@infinity.nu> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > Hi everyone. I haven't caught up on this thread but Tamas pinged >> me to >> > >> get >> > >> > some usage data from Central. Attached are the Maven versions and >> JDK >> > >> > Version counts as reported by User Agent by distinct IP for the >> last >> > 30 >> > >> > days: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 4:15 PM Hunter C Payne >> > >> > <hunterpayne2...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> I also want to stress that we care about what maven supports far >> > more >> > >> >> than what it requires to build. If it needs JDK 17 to build but >> the >> > >> jars >> > >> >> are compliant with Java 8, that's fine with me. >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Hunter >> > >> >> >> > >> >> On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 12:47:33 PM PST, Romain >> > >> >> Manni-Bucau <rmannibu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Hmm, not sure im ready for a 200M vanilla build tool even if it >> > would >> > >> >> have >> > >> >> been ok legally... >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Le mer. 21 févr. 2024 à 21:41, Hunter C Payne >> > >> >> <hunterpayne2...@yahoo.com.invalid> a écrit : >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > I might be wrong but I understood that shipping the JRE/JVM >> > >> required a >> > >> >> > license and this is why most people don't ship with a JVM >> bundled. >> > >> But >> > >> >> > perhaps that has changed since the Oracle v Google/Alphabet >> trial. >> > >> >> > Hunter >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 12:00:54 PM PST, Benjamin >> > >> Marwell >> > >> >> < >> > >> >> > bmarw...@apache.org> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > FWIW, bazel changed its runtime requirement to Java 21. >> > >> >> > But they are shipping their own Java Runtime, so their users >> won't >> > >> >> notice. >> > >> >> > [1] >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > I think they are the first build tool to do that. >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > I say this as a FYI fact only, not implying anything. >> > >> >> > Make of it what you want. >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > - Ben >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > Am Di., 20. Feb. 2024 um 21:50 Uhr schrieb Tamás Cservenák >> > >> >> > <ta...@cservenak.net>: >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Howdy, >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > I intentionally used "Maven" here, and not "Maven 4" as I am >> sure >> > >> the >> > >> >> > > majority of Maven users do not run Maven on the same Java >> version >> > >> they >> > >> >> > > target with their build. We do not do that either. >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Some snippets from Herve (who is the ONLY one doing >> reproducible >> > >> >> checks, >> > >> >> > > kudos for that) votes: >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 9:38 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Apache Maven Shade Plugin version 3.5.2 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Build ok: reference build done with JDK 11 on >> *nix >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 5:06 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Apache Maven JLink Plugin version 3.2.0 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Builds ok: reference build done on *nix with JDK >> 21 >> > >> and >> > >> >> > umask >> > >> >> > > 022 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Mon, Jan 8, 2024, 8:29 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Maven Plugin Tools version 3.11.0 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Builds ok: reference build done with JDK 8 on >> > Windows >> > >> >> with >> > >> >> > > umask >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 8:59 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Apache Maven Compiler Plugin version 3.12.0 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Builds ok: reference build done on *nix with JDK >> 21 >> > >> and >> > >> >> > umask >> > >> >> > > 022 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 8:59 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Apache Maven Compiler Plugin version 3.12.0 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Builds ok: reference build done on *nix with JDK >> 21 >> > >> and >> > >> >> > umask >> > >> >> > > 022 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Wed, Nov 29, 2023, 8:16 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Apache Maven Build Cache Extension 1.1.0 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Build ok: reference build done on *nix with JDK >> 11 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 5:17 PM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Maven Resolver 1.9.17 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Build ok: reference build done with JDK 21 on >> *nix >> > >> with >> > >> >> > umask >> > >> >> > > 022 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Sat, Oct 21, 2023, 4:34 PM >> > >> >> > > VOTE] Apache Maven 4.0.0-alpha-8 release >> > >> >> > > Reproducible Build ok: reference build done with JDK 21 on >> *nix >> > >> with >> > >> >> > umask >> > >> >> > > 022 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Mon, Oct 2, 2023, 9:11 AM >> > >> >> > > [VOTE] Release Apache Maven 3.9.5 >> > >> >> > > Reproducible not fully ok: reference build done with JDK 17 on >> > *nix >> > >> >> and >> > >> >> > > umask 022 >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > ==== >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > This CLEARLY shows the tendency: >> > >> >> > > - Michael does releases on Java 8 (on windows!), he is a known >> > >> >> "aligner" >> > >> >> > > and windows person :) >> > >> >> > > - Olivier used the "minimum" required Java version (for build >> > >> cache). >> > >> >> > > - Unsure why Herve used Java 11 for the Shade plugin... I >> mean, >> > he >> > >> >> could >> > >> >> > > use 21 but also 8, but he shot for 11 that was EOL at the >> moment >> > of >> > >> >> > release. >> > >> >> > > - The rest is 21. >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > ==== >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > So, the question for those refusing anything other than Java >> 8 to >> > >> >> _run_ >> > >> >> > > Maven (or to revert: for those refusing to run Maven on >> "latest >> > >> LTS", >> > >> >> > that >> > >> >> > > is currently 21): >> > >> >> > > WHY? >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > Thanks >> > >> >> > > T >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >> > >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >> > >> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >
