Who said anything about a reasonable person? :) I don't have such a
hatred - I'm quite used to it, but it has come up in nearly every
client in the last 3 years - not as a final or deal-breaking barrier
to adoption, but a barrier nonetheless.
I'm happy to support it - I just need a seam or hook where I can
provide something that pre-processes before the maven run to generate
the pom.xml. Maven itself doesn't need to support the alternate
format at all. If it could be something that was auto-detected as
well (or at worst, put into a settings.xml) then that'd be great.
Essentially I'm doing that now with the maven-yamlpom-plugin... it's
just that I have to do a separate run because it modifies the pom.xml,
and so maven fails on the first sync because the pom was modified.
In a pinch, this can all be handled with shell scripts wrapping maven,
but I'd prefer to have a cleaner place to integrate.
Christian.
On Sep 4, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Jason van Zyl wrote:
On 2009-09-04, at 10:59 PM, Christian Edward Gruber wrote:
So I agree that it is a valid concern, and there needs to be a
canonical format (which will probably be XML) which all artifacts
are saved as - but in my source tree, it should be entirely
possible to have an alternate way to specify, since often I've
found that XML-hatred is a barrier to Maven adoption in some firms.
I have not found this to be a concern. There's lots of other things
that are barrier but the XML has honestly never come up in any
conversations I've had.
You should always be able to get the pom.xml... help:canonical-pom
would be a decent way to quickly do it, and artifacts should be
published that way - but a Project is an object, and alternate
serializations shouldn't be a problem.
Therein lies the problem, the only real canonical form is the object
model. With 3 XML formats which one is the canonical format? The
first one?
I would, also as an evangelist and implementor of build systems in
companies, encourage that a company standardize on a format, but if
that company wants to use YAML, or some other terser, more human
readable format for the pom, then I'm good with that.
I'm not. Again this falls into my category of "if you want it that
way, you support it." A company can standardize on whatever it
wants, but I'm not going to hide the real cost of that. We may
ultimately decide it's not worth it having another XML format. There
are a lot more things in 3.0 that interest me then another XML format.
I used to feel more like you, Brian, but for the sheer intensity of
hatred of XML out there (as a format for human-maintained source).
Again, I've not witnessed any XML hatred or that being a
justification by a reasonable person not to use Maven.
The problem you're describing about one project using one and
another using a different one - that's no different than one
project deciding to use a different set of integration test plugins
(invoker vs. shitty) and confusing the noobs. The bottom line is
that you're not going to be able to constraint people from going
for the "new thing" and messing up the inexperienced, so providing
sane defaults with lots of room to customize is the best option, in
my view.
Christian.
On Sep 4, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Brian Fox wrote:
Just my 2 cents as a Maven evangelist in a big private company.
Even if
Maven is around for years now, basic endusers just start to get
accustomed to pom.xml and Maven philosophy (really! people are
far slowest to change than in OpenSource project team).
Please, please don't mess everything. Small additions are fine,
but I think a new format is a bad idea even if it is optional.
One of advantage of Maven is standardization across all our
projects. If there are several format allowed, some projects will
start using new one when others are still using the former and it
will lead to a total mess.
That's my main concern as well to be honest.
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Thanks,
Jason
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Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
http://twitter.com/SonatypeNexus
http://twitter.com/SonatypeM2E
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