"Mailing list is an obsolete legacy for old projects"...

Not true. If you don't understand the reason and rationale and *benefits* of 
using a mailing list, and why they are so core to how Apache runs projects, I'd 
be happy to provide some data.

> On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:53 PM, Eric Xie <j...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Neither TF nor Pytorch uses mailing lists though. In fact I can't think of 
> any deep learning community that uses mailing lists. Mailing list is an 
> obsolete legacy for old projects. No point in bringing it into new projects.
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric
> 
> On 2018/06/18 18:42:12, Sebastian <s...@apache.org> wrote: 
>> I am puzzled by the reluctance of this project to setup a user 
>> mailinglist to be honest.
>> 
>> MXNet has major issues with attracting a community outside of Amazon 
>> (whenever I hear folks talking about deep learning, they usually mention 
>> tensorflow, pytorch and keras, but I rarely hear someone talk about 
>> MXNet). At the same time, there is so much resistance to adopt practices 
>> that are successfully used by many high-profile toplevel projects...
>> 
>> -s
>> 
>> On 18.06.2018 20:37, Timur Shenkao wrote:
>>> Facebook is definitely a bad idea: we will be dependent on third party
>>> provider + unclear who & how manages such group etc.
>>> Forum + Confluence + Slack is  much better then.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Ivan Serdyuk <local.tourist.k...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Greetings Barber, Christopher. I had an idea to move out some discussions,
>>>> covering Java and Scala API, to Facebook. So if somewhere exists a local
>>>> JUG or Scala user group - they could reflect the topic of discussion. But
>>>> background stuff could take place on mailing lists, Slack, forum, whatever.
>>>> The reverse mechanism could be used to involve new committers, as well (so
>>>> they would appear as presented newcomers, as for contributions).
>>>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> Ivan
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 8:40 PM, Barber, Christopher <
>>>> christopher.bar...@analog.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I don't understand why you would want a users mailing list when you
>>>>> already have discussion forums. Users that want to be notified of new
>>>> posts
>>>>> on the forum can configure their notification preferences appropriately.
>>>>> The traffic on the forums is already pretty low. I would think you would
>>>>> not want to dilute that further.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Christopher
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 6/18/18, 1:27 PM, "Jim Jagielski" <j...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>     users@ mailing lists have great societal advantages that one
>>>>> shouldn't ignore...
>>>>> 
>>>>>     And it's not like this is the only project with "multiple"
>>>>> communication choices for users. Most, if not all, projects have users@in
>>>>> addition to such supplemental methods as IRC channels, a forum, etc...
>>>> It's
>>>>> about making it easy to have as many users as possible and as many
>>>>> potential ways for users to communicate. It's not confusing; it's
>>>>> empowering :)
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Tianqi Chen <tqc...@cs.washington.edu
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The problem of having multiple separate channels of communication
>>>> is
>>>>> that
>>>>>> users get confused, and the cost of maintenance goes up(people have
>>>>> to
>>>>>> watch both). As the current community was at discuss forum and many
>>>>> users
>>>>>> prefer it, having a mail-list is only a burden we will bring
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tianqi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and low-overhead
>>>>> way of
>>>>>>> *increasing* the user community and providing an extra level of
>>>>> support.
>>>>>>> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT the case, I
>>>> would
>>>>>>> recommend we create the list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Tianqi Chen <
>>>>> tqc...@cs.washington.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So unless there is a strong evidence that our community users
>>>>> prefers the
>>>>>>>> mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current way
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Tianqi
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández <
>>>>> wik...@apache.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really hope we
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> thinking a bit beyond that...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen <
>>>> tqc...@cs.washington.edu
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in Seattle, we
>>>> did a
>>>>>>> survey,
>>>>>>>>>> and most users preferred the current discuss forum. So I would
>>>>> say we
>>>>>>>>> stick
>>>>>>>>>> with that given the user community prefers that
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Tianqi
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio Fernández <
>>>>> wik...@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Then, if everybody agree, let's request the mailing list
>>>>> creation to
>>>>>>>>>> INFRA
>>>>>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically developers are also
>>>>> subscribed
>>>>>>>>>> there,
>>>>>>>>>>> since they may be the most informed people for answering
>>>> users'
>>>>>>>>>> questions.
>>>>>>>>>>> But the topics discussed there may not be of the interest for
>>>>> pure
>>>>>>>>>>> development purposes. Some discussions will jump from users@
>>>>> to dev@,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> at a different level. So I wouldn't forward one mailing list
>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:01 Marco de Abreu
>>>>>>>>>>> <marco.g.ab...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think nobody was opposed to it in the past, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd propose that all emails automatically get copied to dev@
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>>>> visibility initially. What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian <s...@apache.org> schrieb am Fr., 15. Juni 2018,
>>>>> 20:51:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have already proposed this many times in the past and
>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> strongly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio Fernández wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is there any good reason why the podling doesn't have a
>>>>> users@
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly speaking, I'm not a big fan of the other tools the
>>>>>>>>> podling
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using. Slack and Web forums a cool tools, and I used them a
>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contexts. But when it comes to transparency and community,
>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> lists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play a crucial role in the Apache Way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users are the most important asset a project can have. Even
>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers, believe me. So I think it's time to create a
>>>>> users@
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list for to helping MXNet grow its community beyong the
>>>> core
>>>>>>>>> team.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 

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