"Mailing list is an obsolete legacy for old projects"... Not true. If you don't understand the reason and rationale and *benefits* of using a mailing list, and why they are so core to how Apache runs projects, I'd be happy to provide some data.
> On Jun 18, 2018, at 2:53 PM, Eric Xie <j...@apache.org> wrote: > > Neither TF nor Pytorch uses mailing lists though. In fact I can't think of > any deep learning community that uses mailing lists. Mailing list is an > obsolete legacy for old projects. No point in bringing it into new projects. > > Thanks, > Eric > > On 2018/06/18 18:42:12, Sebastian <s...@apache.org> wrote: >> I am puzzled by the reluctance of this project to setup a user >> mailinglist to be honest. >> >> MXNet has major issues with attracting a community outside of Amazon >> (whenever I hear folks talking about deep learning, they usually mention >> tensorflow, pytorch and keras, but I rarely hear someone talk about >> MXNet). At the same time, there is so much resistance to adopt practices >> that are successfully used by many high-profile toplevel projects... >> >> -s >> >> On 18.06.2018 20:37, Timur Shenkao wrote: >>> Facebook is definitely a bad idea: we will be dependent on third party >>> provider + unclear who & how manages such group etc. >>> Forum + Confluence + Slack is much better then. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 7:17 PM, Ivan Serdyuk <local.tourist.k...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings Barber, Christopher. I had an idea to move out some discussions, >>>> covering Java and Scala API, to Facebook. So if somewhere exists a local >>>> JUG or Scala user group - they could reflect the topic of discussion. But >>>> background stuff could take place on mailing lists, Slack, forum, whatever. >>>> The reverse mechanism could be used to involve new committers, as well (so >>>> they would appear as presented newcomers, as for contributions). >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Ivan >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 8:40 PM, Barber, Christopher < >>>> christopher.bar...@analog.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't understand why you would want a users mailing list when you >>>>> already have discussion forums. Users that want to be notified of new >>>> posts >>>>> on the forum can configure their notification preferences appropriately. >>>>> The traffic on the forums is already pretty low. I would think you would >>>>> not want to dilute that further. >>>>> >>>>> Christopher >>>>> >>>>> On 6/18/18, 1:27 PM, "Jim Jagielski" <j...@jagunet.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> users@ mailing lists have great societal advantages that one >>>>> shouldn't ignore... >>>>> >>>>> And it's not like this is the only project with "multiple" >>>>> communication choices for users. Most, if not all, projects have users@in >>>>> addition to such supplemental methods as IRC channels, a forum, etc... >>>> It's >>>>> about making it easy to have as many users as possible and as many >>>>> potential ways for users to communicate. It's not confusing; it's >>>>> empowering :) >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 18, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Tianqi Chen <tqc...@cs.washington.edu >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> The problem of having multiple separate channels of communication >>>> is >>>>> that >>>>>> users get confused, and the cost of maintenance goes up(people have >>>>> to >>>>>> watch both). As the current community was at discuss forum and many >>>>> users >>>>>> prefer it, having a mail-list is only a burden we will bring >>>>>> >>>>>> Tianqi >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> IMO, that is the wrong way to look at it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A users@ mailing list is a great, easy, low-cost and low-overhead >>>>> way of >>>>>>> *increasing* the user community and providing an extra level of >>>>> support. >>>>>>> Unless there is "strong evidence" that this is NOT the case, I >>>> would >>>>>>> recommend we create the list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 2018, at 12:28 AM, Tianqi Chen < >>>>> tqc...@cs.washington.edu> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So unless there is a strong evidence that our community users >>>>> prefers the >>>>>>>> mail-list, I would recommend we keep the current way >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tianqi >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sergio Fernández < >>>>> wik...@apache.org> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are we targeting just Seattle as our community? I really hope we >>>>> are >>>>>>>>> thinking a bit beyond that... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:22 Tianqi Chen < >>>> tqc...@cs.washington.edu >>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I remember last time during the mxnet meetup in Seattle, we >>>> did a >>>>>>> survey, >>>>>>>>>> and most users preferred the current discuss forum. So I would >>>>> say we >>>>>>>>> stick >>>>>>>>>> with that given the user community prefers that >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tianqi >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Sergio Fernández < >>>>> wik...@apache.org> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Then, if everybody agree, let's request the mailing list >>>>> creation to >>>>>>>>>> INFRA >>>>>>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Marco, I wouldn't do that. Typically developers are also >>>>> subscribed >>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>> since they may be the most informed people for answering >>>> users' >>>>>>>>>> questions. >>>>>>>>>>> But the topics discussed there may not be of the interest for >>>>> pure >>>>>>>>>>> development purposes. Some discussions will jump from users@ >>>>> to dev@, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> at a different level. So I wouldn't forward one mailing list >>>> to >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> other. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 21:01 Marco de Abreu >>>>>>>>>>> <marco.g.ab...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think nobody was opposed to it in the past, right? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'd propose that all emails automatically get copied to dev@ >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> ensure >>>>>>>>>>>> high >>>>>>>>>>>> visibility initially. What do you think? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian <s...@apache.org> schrieb am Fr., 15. Juni 2018, >>>>> 20:51: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have already proposed this many times in the past and >>>> would >>>>>>>>>> strongly >>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -s >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 15.06.2018 21:56, Sergio Fernández wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is there any good reason why the podling doesn't have a >>>>> users@ >>>>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>> list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yet? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Honestly speaking, I'm not a big fan of the other tools the >>>>>>>>> podling >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> using. Slack and Web forums a cool tools, and I used them a >>>>> lot >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> contexts. But when it comes to transparency and community, >>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>>>> lists >>>>>>>>>>>>>> play a crucial role in the Apache Way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users are the most important asset a project can have. Even >>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers, believe me. So I think it's time to create a >>>>> users@ >>>>>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> list for to helping MXNet grow its community beyong the >>>> core >>>>>>>>> team. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>
