Came in late on the discussion so sorry up front.... Think this goes down the installer downloading the dependency path but...
Would some sort of package manager based solution which handles the dependency installation like apt-get (snap) or chocolatey.org (for Windows) with Netbeans dependencies being install as part of that context be an option? Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com > > > > > > On 11/28/2019 9:23 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: > > > > > > Just note that nb-javac won’t be with us forever, work is being > done to > > > > > > remove our need for it. Once that is done, we’ll be in a really > good > > > > > state. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, as well as atter that, we should do everything > we can to > > > > > > work with Kirk and anyone else to provide a bundle of their JDK > with > > > > > > NetBeans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Our installer, in whatever way we provide it, will be > problematic in one > > > > > > way or another. > > > > > > > > > > > > I just don’t see how we can provide an installer from Apache > that bundles > > > > > > both NetBeans and JDK, whatever that JDK is, but (unless > AdoptOpenJDK > > > > > makes > > > > > > such a bundle prominently and stably available) that doesn’t > mean we > > > > > should > > > > > > not try to make even a flawed installer available, i.e., without > the JDK, > > > > > > which is a lot better than nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 at 18:08, Laszlo Kishalmi < > laszlo.kisha...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just adding some info: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not just about the JDK, but JDK, nb-javac and probably a > fitting > > > > > > > JavaFX runtime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If someone can bundle those up and provide an installer most > probably > > > > > > > based on the installer code we have, then that would be the > best end > > > > > > > user experience, like in the old days when we said NetBeans > just works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Separate distributions, like OpenBeans, would eventually > emerge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is just a question of what would be better for the brand. > Keeping our > > > > > > > "crippled" installers and/or offer additional install > experience from > > > > > > > third parties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/28/19 8:49 AM, Kirk Pepperdine wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I believe that you could distribute from Adopt with a > JDK > > > > > > > bundled. So maybe this is a case where using a 3rd party makes > sense. > > > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2019, at 8:45 AM, Kenneth Fogel < > > > > > kfo...@dawsoncollege.qc.ca> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I apologize if I misunderstood but the conversation > appeared to me, > > > > > > > likely incorrectly, to go beyond just bundling a Java JDK. The > > > > > installers > > > > > > > that are already there, are they downloading a JDK if one is > not > > > > > present? > > > > > > > Requiring a separate install of Java is the status quo. If we > could make > > > > > > > that part of the NetBeans installer then we should an we > should pursue > > > > > an > > > > > > > exemption to Apache policies if required. > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > Sent: November 28, 2019 11:30 AM > > > > > > > > > To: dev@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Dropping Installers from the > Release Process > > > > > > > leave that work to Third Party Distributors > > > > > > > > > You’re aware that we’re already distributing an installer, > right? And > > > > > > > that that is not what we’re talking about? > > > > > > > > > We’re talking about the fact that we can’t bundle the JDK > with that > > > > > > > installer and then distribute that installer from Apache. > > > > > > > > > A simple link on our download page to OpenBeans and > AdoptOpenJDK and > > > > > > > any other distributor is all we need, for the installers of > NetBeans > > > > > that > > > > > > > bundle the JDK. > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 at 17:20, Kenneth Fogel < > > > > > kfo...@dawsoncollege.qc.ca > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a bad idea. I personally feel that an installer > is mandatory. > > > > > > > > > > Eclipse and IntelliJ have installers for all platforms. > Leaving it to > > > > > > > > > > third parties will mean that we have no oversight on the > quality and > > > > > > > > > > ease of use of the installer. Only distributing a zip > file implies > > > > > > > > > > that skills beyond learning to code with NetBeans will > be required. > > > > > We > > > > > > > > > > can pretty much write off the education sector if there > is no > > > > > > > > > > installer. Sorry to be harsh but this is a line I > believe we must not > > > > > > > cross. > > > > > > > > > > It is unfortunates, as someone has pointed out, that > Apache is not > > > > > end > > > > > > > > > > user friendly but that is no excuse. NetBeans is an end > user program > > > > > > > > > > and must be as easy to install as any other IDE and have > an official > > > > > > > installer. > > > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > From: Laszlo Kishalmi <laszlo.kisha...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: November 27, 2019 2:41 PM > > > > > > > > > > To: Apache NetBeans <dev@netbeans.apache.org> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [DISCUSS] Dropping Installers from the Release > Process leave > > > > > > > > > > that work to Third Party Distributors > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a great burden to us to provide the best > out-of-the-box install > > > > > > > > > > experience with NetBeans. That would mean, providing an > installer > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > JDK, nb-javac probably javafx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See the threads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/a3e6051130e18aae3f7a81c562a63ac96 > > > > > > > > > > d3a3a07d4bcbee074392d59@%3Clegal-discuss.apache.org%3E > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/489f17e30d9125ee48e2d78dc36572db6 > > > > > > > > > > a3f5d6474f492458e0db151@%3Clegal-discuss.apache.org%3E > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/26/19 9:29 PM, Laszlo Kishalmi wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I try to summary the lengthy threads about bundling > OpenJDK GPL+CPE > > > > > > > > > > > with Apache NetBeans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are mainly two readings of GPL+CPE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. OpenJDK (GPL+CPE) + NetBeans (Apache) = Executable > which can be > > > > > > > > > > > distributed under Apache license, due to CPE 2. CPE > only > > > > > allows > > > > > > > > > > > other product built on Java to be distributed > > > > > > > > > > > under their own license. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I'm not a lawyer, I cannot answer which > interpretation is correct > > > > > > > > > > > (maybe none of them). ASF has every right to regard > the second > > > > > > > > > > > interpretation, thus GPL+CPE ended up in the > Category-X licenses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The following viable possibilities were brought up: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. We may apply for an exception to the board 2. Use > some download > > > > > > > > > > > logic in the installer. > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Leave the binary packaging and distribution to > third parties. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding that there are interest from third parties > to built on > > > > > > > > > > > Apache NetBeans, I'm going to recommend the PMC to > select a few > > > > > > > > > > > distributor for creating installer packages and we > limit/drop our > > > > > > > > > > > installer bundle creation in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laszlo Kishalmi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not think that after this discussion we would get > the exception > > > > > > > > > > from the board Geertjan might try to bring it up there > as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As of me option 2 is questionable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Option 3. is a bit hard to say, but if we can't produce > proper > > > > > > > > > > installation packages, it would probably better to not > create those > > > > > > > > > > packages at all, leave that for others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How I imagine that: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. From 11.3 we remove the convenience binaries and > installers from > > > > > > > > > > our download page > > > > > > > > > > 2. We would still create, sign and host our nbm-s. > > > > > > > > > > 3. On our download page we have the source package and a > section for > > > > > > > > > > third party distributors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well of course this thread is just to start a discussion > about this > > > > > > > > > > matter. I know it would hurt the brand, but probably it > is better > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > > produce some sub-optimal installers while other parties > can come with > > > > > > > > > > all the bells and whistles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Laszlo Kishalmi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, > visit: > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, > visit: > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, > visit: > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > -- Eric Bresie ebre...@gmail.com
