I find it incredible that Jaroslav is saying "... people aren't willing to dedicate 10minutes of their personal time to try HTML/Java API in action ...". How are they supposed to discover that?
Let's try it out with time logging: 15:33 - Setting out to search for NetBeans on google, landed on https://netbeans.org/, latest version 8.2 15:34 - Search for "netbeans apache" (only did this because I knew what to search for), landed on https://netbeans.apache.org/ 15:34 - Go to downloads (https://netbeans.apache.org/download/index.html) - no binaries 15:35 - I've already built v9 once, just deleting it took several minutes 15:41 - Start clone `git clone https://github.com/apache/incubator-netbeans.git` 15:44 - Clone + checkout done 15:44 - `ant` (i had ant 1.10 installed, jdk - oracle 1.8, core i7 6700hq) ... compilation took 24 minutes 29 seconds ... `ant tryme`. Popup message: "Java features limited": - install nb-javac library (highly recommended) - run NetBeans on JDK 9 or later Click button to install nb-javac plugin. Warnings about unsigned plugins. Restart IDE. That's already quite some trouble that would stop 99.5% of people who might have wanted to try it out. Select: File -> New Project -> JavaFX -> Java HTML5 Application (again, only because I knew from this thread where to click) Read description: "Generates a WebView based DukeScript application". DukeScript? WebView based?... huh... Click, wizard opens. Font is different, project type selector radio buttons not aligned to text (image): Select "Visual HTML/Java example", project opens, immediately get warning about project problems (Export-Package/Provate-Package contains packages from dependencies) (image): It did run, but not that I understand the structure of 5 projects that got created or how to use it. I can start "... Client for Web" project from the IDE, but how do I build a runnable application? (image) So yeah, I totally understand people googling for "Java Vaadin Electron tutorial". As a matter of fact I was one of those people just 2 weeks ago, even though I have built NB 9 previously. The samples I was able to run were running either in my default browser (so it depends on system browser) or in, presumably, javafx webview window(?), which lacked significantly in performance (the examples ran, judging visually, at 10-20fps, while in the browser it was smooth, so I couldn't tell the frame rate). I guess something like electron can be used, but I have no idea how to achieve this. It needs: - basic documentation - geertjan style tutorials It needs examples of: - how to feed large amounts of data from Java to JS running the view - how to communicate data back from the view into the java program - how to build and run the application outside of the ide - preferably show how to create an application not from an archetype This project template does get close to being a nice starting point and it'd be great to see it grow, but it's a stretch to expect anyone to know about it at this point. Best, Dmitry On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 1:26 AM, Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks a lot for your opinions! I am going to react to one recurring theme > in this email... > > 2018-03-12 16:59 GMT+01:00 Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com>: > > > > > Forget about AWT, Swing and JavaFX - the future is HTML. In case you > still > > care about Java, then your future should be Apache HTML/Java API! > > > > > First of all I have to admit it drives me mad, how incapable I am in > communicating these ideas. How could I be the initial architect of > NetBeans, when I am not able to explain what HTML/Java API is beneficial > for? Or was I just the architect and there had to be others to handle the > public relations? Or was the success of NetBeans (Platform) just an > unrepeatable luck? > > Anyway, there have been few references to Electron framework in your > reactions to my email: > > > There is nothing better than creating UIs with HTML and use them > everywhere, like in the Electron Framework. > > ... look into electron apps ... like VS Code and I think this is a big > Player and you can see, that it performs very well and it is performant as > hell. > > OK, I can see people are looking (or at least googling) for alternatives to > current UIs. Yes, I agree HTML is one of (the best) options there - > especially if you want real WORA - e.g. also target plain browser. However > I have to say the following sentence is just increasing my internal > suffering... > > > heavyweight, ...(but)... the open source nature ... of Electron make it > potentially an attractive option for mixed Java/HTML applications > > We - the NetBeans (incubating) project - have such technology, it is > HTML/Java API. It has been intentionally designed to support mixed > Java/HTML applications. We are the community of the project! But instead of > improving what we have and making it work for our NetBeans IDE purposes > (which is certainly simpler than trying to use Electron designed for > something different; more on that later), we are looking at other project > and admiring their "open source nature"! > > Am I really doing so poor job that people aren't willing to dedicate 10 > minutes of their personal time to try HTML/Java API in action? Rather they > are looking... > > > I was looking at an example project using Vaadin running inside Electron > recently. Have you tried this approach with HTML/Java? > > ...and trying Electron samples! C'mon do you have recent version of > NetBeans 9.0? Then just select "New Project", "JavaFX", "Java HTML5 > Application" click through the wizard and choose Run/Debug on the generated > project! How much did it take? 30s of activity[1]? > > > I keep trying to find some time to experiment with Apache HTML/Java and > wondered at the feasibility of reworking that Electron example with it? > > If you give the NetBeans 9.0 support for HTML/Java UI a try, you see (when > using for example the Visual archetype) that rewriting visually rich > Electron application like > https://github.com/electron/simple-samples/tree/master/activity-monitor > should be a piece of cake. > > I consider it patriotic to try NetBeans own solution first. Am I completely > off? > > > Demo app showing all kind of features a given system allows me to use. > Like a toolbox, which I run and say - hey that's the component I need. Is > there something like this for the HTML+JAVA api? > > The visual archetype offers canvas sample, line charts and pie charts > sample and interactive GeoBase application. Isn't that enough? Then there > is another CRUD like archetype, as well as simple MVVM sample. All of them > are just few clicks from your reach ("New Project", "JavaFX", "Java HTML5 > Application"), is that enough to get started? > > I hope it is. Guys, please, instead of drinking your morning coffee, click > though the wizard and see Apache HTML/Java API in action yourself. I'll be > thankful for comments. As confessed, I am depressed by my inability to > communicate what our HTML/Java project can do for you. It may not be 100% > perfect fit, but it is so close to what you guys need.... Shame on me for > not being able to explain that! > > Thanks. > -js > > PS: Now let's look at what Electron isn't and why HTML/Java shall be a > better choice: > > > I am sure electron is good, but my personal preference is to not use a > web ide. > > I share your feelings. However we are not talking about Web IDE. We are > talking about reusing rendering pipeline that is behind HTML. Sure, this > pipeline is used in browsers, but that doesn't mean browser == the > rendering pipeline. Browser is much more and we don't need all of that. > > > Think about ... what Electron actually *is* ... > > Electron is the rendering pipeline, plus a bunch of libraries for dealing > with the surrounding operating system, plus JavaScript specific build > system. But, when writing Java application, why would you need those > libraries? Java has pretty rich operating system API (think of java.nio, > missing in JavaScript) and there are plenty of libraries to deal with other > aspects of OS integration. Why would you need npm build system? Java has > other, well established build systems as well. Conclusion? The only thing > you'd want from Electron is the rendering pipeline. > > But then: What is the HTML/Java project goal? To be a portable abstraction > over such pipeline! I would conclude that you don't want to look at > Electron to begin with! Again, I am ashamed of not being able to get my > message thru... > > > > Funfact: Without JavaFX you don't have a HTML5 renderer > > The truth is that we already have our existing Swing/JavaFX applications > and if we want to move towards HTML, we need an incremental way to migrate, > rather than big bang rewrite of everything. That is not at all what > Electron can give you! On the other hand that is something HTML/Java API > shines at. Because of using the JavaFX renderer (behind the scene), we can > easily mix the Swing and HTML UI in NetBeans IDE[2]. > > In any case having the Swing/HTML UI interop is real benefit for us. We can > mix both types of the UI right now. By having the renderer as an > implementation detail, we can replace it with better one in the future. > > PPS: Have any of the above (or below) convinced you to give HTML/Java API a > try or did I failed again to explain its benefits? > > [1] Plus few minutes of Maven plugins initial download time... > [2] Have you noticed that the wizard ("New Project", "JavaFX", "Java HTML5 > Application") is written in HTML UI? I hope the transition from the Swing > to the HTML UI was smooth enough to not be really noticeable. >
