Hi all, just out of a perspective of a fairly new active user:
One point which set me off was that the examples didn't work. For instance, the "getting started", which was written with a S7 device. I tried it with a S7-300 device and the Subscription didn't work as described. Not even one subscription worked that time, which was a bit of annoying. I think if changes are made in new releases, they only should be released if the website got updated accordingly, or tests have been made to ensure that the expected behaviour stays the same. Maybe a Beckhoff (just one I know is "free" maybe there are others) Getting Started would be good as well. You can use it on your computer without having bought expensive hardware. This way the entry hurdle will be lowered a bit. The 24/7 thing is a thing I always get asked as well. But in my view, this isn't a problem of plc4x but of the integrators. Because if something isn't working as expected, the integrator has to hunt the problem, and should be able to debug it himself, in parallel he could ask for help in the community. But in my experience the equipment won't go into stop overnight with an unknown problem which never occurred before, which is directly related to an interface software like plc4x, and has never been occurred while testing and ramp up, and cannot be patched or bypassed. But maybe it is the case only in my use cases (retrofits). The other thing I came across, is the limited appreciation of this project and the active members. I don't know why still as many people think open source means without costs. I appreciate your work! Thank you very much! Best regards Björn ------------------------- Bjoern Haverland Mail: bjo...@b-have.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Luiz doleron <dole...@gmail.com> Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. Juli 2024 23:46 An: dev@plc4x.apache.org Betreff: Re: AW: [D] How to seed community engagement? Hey Chris and Cesar, I'm glad to hear that! Chris, I got your point. Thank you for sharing. Okay, on my side, I will work on tutorials using real machinery but mainly SIMULATORS to help the new students play without real PLCs. If someone here would like to connect to share any ideas or provide assistance, do not hesitate to get in touch at doleron @ gmail com Best, Luiz Em dom., 7 de jul. de 2024 às 18:07, Christofer Dutz < christofer.d...@c-ware.de> escreveu: > Hi all, > > I do agree that with PLC4PY we could reach a younger audience. One > that would be more inclined to try something new. > > The problem I see, is that these folks don’t have access to the > production machinery, because the gatekeepers to the shopfloor systems > are old-school automation engineers. > > When I started PLC4X I first concentrated on IT … making it easy for > software engineers to write software for industrial automation sector. > I talked on IT conferences, published in IT magazines and Blogs. And > people were really digging into it. > > Unfortunately, I learned way too late, that I was targeting the wrong > audience. While I got the IT folks on board really easy (compared to > the others). Most of them stopped digging deeper when they noticed > that they need industrial Hardware for actually doing something > sensible with it. And when talking to the people with the hardware, we > usually got disqualified by the Automation gatekeepers asking stuff like: > > > * Are you ZYZ certified? > * What’s your 24/7 on premise support offering worldwide? > > That’s why at least for the first question I came up with the concept > of passive-mode drivers. For the second I usually replied: “we don’t have > one”. > > I think the main problem of PLC4X is that the access to the equipment > is guarded by hordes of old-school automation dinosaurs. And I doubt > Python support will change anything here :-( > > But hey … prove me wrong … and if I can help you, I’ll do what I can > to do so. > > But as you mention it: > "Economics is the study of how we choose to use limited resources to > obtain the maximum satisfaction of unlimited human wants" … I have > limited time available, if I want to have a life and I personally have > found out that working with wood in my shed brings more satisfaction > for myself compared to wearing me out for an industry that doesn’t > seem to want me to do anything. > > Chris > > > Von: Cesar Garcia <cesar.gar...@ceos.com.ve> > Datum: Sonntag, 7. Juli 2024 um 22:14 > An: dev@plc4x.apache.org <dev@plc4x.apache.org> > Betreff: Re: AW: [D] How to seed community engagement? > Hello Luis, > > Indeed, in the world of automation there is a lot of use and custom, > and a lot of resistance to change, which is generally created by big brands. > > As you point out, within the group we share the vision that we should > introduce PLC4X in universities and bet on the future. > > Some of us are working precisely so that the learning curve of PLC4X > does not hinder its adoption, bringing it closer to commercial components. > > Kind regards, > > El dom, 7 jul 2024 a las 14:15, Luiz doleron (<dole...@gmail.com>) > escribió: > > > Hi, Chris! > > > > I have more than 20 years in the TIC industry and Python is not my > > preferred language for real-world projects or even for hobby projects. > > > > My particular technical opinion about Python is that this language > > is an engineering mistake (pythonists, no offense intended). > > > > However, I use Python always when it is required to use Python. > > > > Said that, > > > > "Admittedly this doesn’t seem to have worked or we simply don’t know it." > > > > My suggestion is to rethink the strategy: > > > > So far, PLC4X focused on the old guys in the automation industry. > > This previous experience showed that these guys are (usually) less > > prone to changes. > > They use the same tools for years long and probably most of them are > > not inclined to spend energy or take risks to embrace new ways or tools. > > > > My suggestion is to focus on the enormous volume of engineering > > students playing educational/researching projects. > > > > - Tutorials showing how to use PLC4X to communicate with PLC > > Simulators > > - Easy support for Python and Java > > - Prebuilt packages like pip and maven > > - Simple runnable examples, lots of > > - Mix market: YouTube, StackOverflow, Medium, etc > > > > My feeling is that, in a second moment, this new public can form the > > critical mass to drive PLC4X for a more shopfloor-oriented, > > industrial scenario moving the proprietary alternatives to obsolescence. > > > > I would like to highlight that I am not criticizing PLC4X here. > > Quite the opposite. IMO PLC4X can play a game-changing. > > > > From the schoolbook: > > > > "Economics is the study of how we choose to use limited resources to > obtain > > the maximum satisfaction of unlimited human wants" > > > > Thus, this is not about Python or Java or specifically code. My > > understanding about the code is that PLC4X as is (i.e., keeping > > netty) > can > > rapidly take the scene control. > > > > Sorry if I'm stretching this talk for too long. I only would like to > > tell what I can see from an external perspective. > > > > Best regards, > > > > -- > > Luiz Carlos d´Oleron > > > > > -- > *CEOS Automatización, C.A.* > *GALPON SERVICIO INDUSTRIALES Y NAVALES FA, C.A.,* *PISO 1, OFICINA 2, > AV. RAUL LEONI, SECTOR GUAMACHITO,* > > *FRENTE A LA ASOCIACION DE GANADEROS,BARCELONA,EDO. ANZOATEGUI* *Ing. > César García* > > *Cel: +58 414-760.98.95* > > *Hotline Técnica SIEMENS: 0800 1005080* > > *Email: support.aan.automat...@siemens.com > <support.aan.automat...@siemens.com>* > -- Luiz Carlos d´Oleron
