>-----Original Message----- >From: Ate Douma [mailto:[email protected]] >Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:52 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: User list > >On 03/29/2012 07:04 PM, Suresh Marru wrote: >> >> On Mar 29, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Franklin, Matthew B. wrote: >>>> I'm going to open a request for creating a MoinMoin wiki instance at >>>> http://wiki.apache.org/rave >>> >>> Is MoinMoin the choice? It's fine by me, but I thought that Confluence was >requested by someone... >Hmm, maybe I jumped too quick to a conclusion? > >I did propose creating a MoinMoin wiki after graduation on the roadmap >discussion, if nobody objected... >The only feedback I got was a +1 from Matt [1] :)
My concern was that people may not realize that wiki.apache.org is MoinMoin... > >And earlier there was a request to use Confluence [2] from William Hayes. >I did provide some feedback [3] then giving my hesitation on using >Confluence, >based on declining usage (at ASF) and INFRA preferences, as well as my own. > >I've used both and while Confluence is 'great', I personally prefer MoinMoin >because it is simpler, more lightweight (also on INFRA), open source, and IMO >can do most/everything we should need, including security management [4]. >A I also dislike Confluence very much for one specific reason (see below). > >However we did not formally vote on this as I assumed lazy consensus. I didn't think we needed a vote, just remembered William raised points on the issue and didn't know if there was any community agreement or if it was still up in the air. > >If someone from our PMC strongly prefers going with Confluence however >and >revert the creation of wiki.apache.org/rave (as it already is up), better say >so >now before we actually start using it... Migration from one to the other >probably always can be done also later but I've no idea of the amount of >effort. Assuming no one else chimes in this morning, I think we should go forward with MoinMoin. > >> >> >> I do not have the right insights to comment on both the wiki's but I have >noticed confluence has the some extra benefits which might come handy: >> >> * Integration with JIRA - I am not sure how ASF deployment is setup, but I >have seen projects who effectively use these two to compliment each other. >I'm not sure either. The benefit probably would be that you don't need to >type a >full JIRA issue url, only its key and Confluence will resolve it. But I don't >know if that actually works in the ASF case. At any rate, I don't care much for >that benefit as we have the same 'problem' with email, website CMS, etc. >anyway. > >> * We can have public write access as well as subset of pages with write >access to commuters only. >This actually can be (and should be) done with MoinMoin too, see [4] for >some info. >> This way if we are having some documentation pages as part of the >releases, >Note: ASF INFRA, as of Nov. 1 2011, no longer support/allow (auto) exporting >Confluence to static content to be merged in the main website see [5] > >And I strongly dislike having documentation considered important enough to >be >'released' *not* also and primarily/leading on our website itself. >I easily and quick envision a decline on quality and effort there otherwise. >So -1 from me on that one... +1 on keeping important documentation on the website. -1 for the Wiki. > >> the committer contributed content is already covered by ICLA.s. >> Others (who do not have a ICLA on file) can comment on these restricted >pages >> without directly editing them and we can take the comments and update >the pages. >This also can be done through MoinMoin, but IMO we should (only) allow this >through an ContributerGroup [4] which *we* easily can maintain ourselves >(on >page-by-page basis if so desired). >Confluence user management however required more karma and is less trivial >to >configure in this respect. > >> >> Others who have used both wiki's to a greater extent might be a better >judge on recommending one over the other. >There is one specific 'feature' of Confluence I particularly hate although >others might not care much for it: its *inability* to provide nested page urls >nor allows same-named pages within one Space [6] (which ends up being the >same >issue). > >To me this really is a major issue as you can't build nice and logical url >structures for the wiki content as everything is 'collapsed' in a single url >folder. Try to make two 'Overview' pages in one Confluence (for different >sub-topics)... You'll end up constructing page names like <Topic>Overview, >instead of /topic/Overview. >MoinMoin does support the latter and is trivial to make use of, see [7] for an >example. > >And Confluence is never going to fix this: [6] has been open since 2005 and >has >'just' been closed as 'Won't Fix'... >Read the Atlassian status at the end of that issue description (1 Nov. 2011). >Seven years of waiting ... and then nothing :( > >> >> --Suresh >> >> > >[1] http://markmail.org/message/ruftsbz3j65ifrey >[2] http://markmail.org/message/xou33iugeh2tx474 >[3] http://markmail.org/message/s2mqhn5iz5l2jezq >[4] http://wiki.apache.org/general/OurWikiFarm >[5] >https://cwiki.apache.org/CWIKI/#Index- >Canweusetheautoexportsiteaspartofourmainwebsite%3F >[6] https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/CONF-2524 >[7] >http://wiki.apache.org/portals/Jetspeed2/PluggableEngineComponents/Core >EngineComponents/PortalConfiguration > >
