Shouldn't we have started a new thread for the wiki?
On 30 March 2012 13:55, Franklin, Matthew B. <[email protected]> wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Ate Douma [mailto:[email protected]] > >Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:52 AM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: User list > > > >On 03/29/2012 07:04 PM, Suresh Marru wrote: > >> > >> On Mar 29, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Franklin, Matthew B. wrote: > >>>> I'm going to open a request for creating a MoinMoin wiki instance at > >>>> http://wiki.apache.org/rave > >>> > >>> Is MoinMoin the choice? It's fine by me, but I thought that > Confluence was > >requested by someone... > >Hmm, maybe I jumped too quick to a conclusion? > > > >I did propose creating a MoinMoin wiki after graduation on the roadmap > >discussion, if nobody objected... > >The only feedback I got was a +1 from Matt [1] :) > > My concern was that people may not realize that wiki.apache.org is > MoinMoin... > I have no strong preference for MediaWiki, MoinMoin or Confluence although I know Confluence best. > > > >And earlier there was a request to use Confluence [2] from William Hayes. > >I did provide some feedback [3] then giving my hesitation on using > >Confluence, > >based on declining usage (at ASF) and INFRA preferences, as well as my > own. > > > >I've used both and while Confluence is 'great', I personally prefer > MoinMoin > >because it is simpler, more lightweight (also on INFRA), open source, and > IMO > >can do most/everything we should need, including security management [4]. > >A I also dislike Confluence very much for one specific reason (see below). > > > >However we did not formally vote on this as I assumed lazy consensus. > > I didn't think we needed a vote, just remembered William raised points on > the issue and didn't know if there was any community agreement or if it was > still up in the air. > > > > >If someone from our PMC strongly prefers going with Confluence however > >and > >revert the creation of wiki.apache.org/rave (as it already is up), > better say so > >now before we actually start using it... Migration from one to the other > >probably always can be done also later but I've no idea of the amount of > >effort. > > Assuming no one else chimes in this morning, I think we should go forward > with MoinMoin. > > > > >> > >> > >> I do not have the right insights to comment on both the wiki's but I > have > >noticed confluence has the some extra benefits which might come handy: > >> > >> * Integration with JIRA - I am not sure how ASF deployment is setup, > but I > >have seen projects who effectively use these two to compliment each other. > >I'm not sure either. The benefit probably would be that you don't need to > >type a > >full JIRA issue url, only its key and Confluence will resolve it. But I > don't > >know if that actually works in the ASF case. At any rate, I don't care > much for > >that benefit as we have the same 'problem' with email, website CMS, etc. > >anyway. > > > >> * We can have public write access as well as subset of pages with write > >access to commuters only. > >This actually can be (and should be) done with MoinMoin too, see [4] for > >some info. > >> This way if we are having some documentation pages as part of the > >releases, > >Note: ASF INFRA, as of Nov. 1 2011, no longer support/allow (auto) > exporting > >Confluence to static content to be merged in the main website see [5] > > > >And I strongly dislike having documentation considered important enough to > >be > >'released' *not* also and primarily/leading on our website itself. > >I easily and quick envision a decline on quality and effort there > otherwise. > >So -1 from me on that one... > > +1 on keeping important documentation on the website. -1 for the Wiki. > I totally agree with you. We should mention on the front page of the wiki what kind of content belongs on the wiki and what belongs on the (documentation) website. The website and wiki should link to each other. Is there a way we can have a single search engine for both (Google?). > > > > >> the committer contributed content is already covered by ICLA.s. > >> Others (who do not have a ICLA on file) can comment on these restricted > >pages > >> without directly editing them and we can take the comments and update > >the pages. > >This also can be done through MoinMoin, but IMO we should (only) allow > this > >through an ContributerGroup [4] which *we* easily can maintain ourselves > >(on > >page-by-page basis if so desired). > >Confluence user management however required more karma and is less trivial > >to > >configure in this respect. > > > >> > >> Others who have used both wiki's to a greater extent might be a better > >judge on recommending one over the other. > >There is one specific 'feature' of Confluence I particularly hate although > >others might not care much for it: its *inability* to provide nested page > urls > >nor allows same-named pages within one Space [6] (which ends up being the > >same > >issue). > > > >To me this really is a major issue as you can't build nice and logical url > >structures for the wiki content as everything is 'collapsed' in a single > url > >folder. Try to make two 'Overview' pages in one Confluence (for different > >sub-topics)... You'll end up constructing page names like <Topic>Overview, > >instead of /topic/Overview. > >MoinMoin does support the latter and is trivial to make use of, see [7] > for an > >example. > > > >And Confluence is never going to fix this: [6] has been open since 2005 > and > >has > >'just' been closed as 'Won't Fix'... > >Read the Atlassian status at the end of that issue description (1 Nov. > 2011). > >Seven years of waiting ... and then nothing :( > > > >> > >> --Suresh > >> > >> > > > >[1] http://markmail.org/message/ruftsbz3j65ifrey > >[2] http://markmail.org/message/xou33iugeh2tx474 > >[3] http://markmail.org/message/s2mqhn5iz5l2jezq > >[4] http://wiki.apache.org/general/OurWikiFarm > >[5] > >https://cwiki.apache.org/CWIKI/#Index- > >Canweusetheautoexportsiteaspartofourmainwebsite%3F > >[6] https://jira.atlassian.com/browse/CONF-2524 > >[7] > >http://wiki.apache.org/portals/Jetspeed2/PluggableEngineComponents/Core > >EngineComponents/PortalConfiguration > > > > > >
