On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:55 AM Ishan Chattopadhyaya <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Gus,
>
> > I think that we should expand/edit your list of roles to be
>
> The list can be expanded as and when more isolation and features are
> needed. I only listed those roles that we already have a functionality for
> or is under development.
>
Well all of those roles (except zookeeper) are things nodes do today. As it
stands they are all doing all of them. What we add support for as we move
forward is starting without a role, and add the zookeeper role when that
feature is ready.
> > I would like to recommend that the roles be all positive ("Can do this")
> and nodes with no role at all are ineligible for all activities.
>
> It comes down to the defaults and backcompat. If we want all Solr nodes to
> be able to host data replicas by default (without user explicitly
> specifying role=data), then we need a way to unset this role. The most
> reasonable way sounded like a "!data". We can do away with !data if we
> mandate each and every data node have the role "data" explicitly defined
> for it, which breaks backcompat and also is cumbersome to use for those who
> don't want to use these special roles.
>
>
Not sure I understand, which of the roles I mentioned (other than
zookeeper, which I expect is intended as different from our current
embedded zk) is NOT currently supported by a single cloud node brought up
as shown in our tutorials/docs? I'm certainly not proposing that the
default change to nothing. The default is all roles, unless you specify
roles at startup.
> > I also suggest that these roles each have a node in zookeeper listing
> the current member nodes (as child nodes) so that code that wants to find a
> node with an appropriate role does not need to scan the list of all nodes
> parsing something to discover which nodes apply and also does not have to
> parse json to do it.
>
> /roles.json exists today, it has role as key and list of nodes as value.
> In the next major version, we can change the format of that file and use
> key as node, value as list of roles. Or, maybe we can go for adding the
> roles to the data for each item in the list of live_nodes.
>
>
I'm not finding anything in our documentation about roles.json so I think
it's an internal implementation detail, which reduces back compat concerns.
ADDROLE/REMOVEROLE don't accept json or anything like that and could be
made to work with zk nodes too.
The fact that some precursor work was done without a SIP (or before SIPs
existed) should not hamstring our design once a SIP that clearly covers the
same topic is under consideration. By their nature SIP's are non-trivial
and often will include compatibility breaks. Good news is I don't think I
see one here, just a code change to transition to a different zk backend. I
think that it's probably a mistake to consider our zookeeper data a public
API and we should be moving away from that or at the very least segregating
clearly what in zk is long term reliable. Ideally our v1/v2 api's should be
the public api through which information about the cluster is obtained.
Programming directly against zk is kind of like a custom build of solr.
Sometimes useful and appropriate, but maintenance is your concern. For code
plugging into solr, it should in theory be against an internal information
java api, and zookeeper should not be touched directly. (I know this is not
in a good state or at least wasn't last time I looked closely, but it
should be where we are heading).
> any code seeking to transition a node
>
> We considered this situation and realized that it is very risky to have
> nodes change roles while they are up and running. Better to assign fixed
> roles upon startup.
>
I agree that concurrency is hard. I definitely think startup time
assignments should be involved here. I'm not thinking that every transition
must be supported. As a starting point it would be fine if none were.
Having something suddenly become zookeeper is probably tricky to support
(see discussion in that thread regarding nodes not actually participating
until they have a partner to join with them to avoid even numbered
clusters), but I think the design should not preclude the possibility of
nodes becoming eligible for some roles or withdrawing from some roles, and
treatment of roles should be consistent. In some cases someone may decide
it's worth the work of handling the concurrency concerns, best if they
don't have to break back compat or hack their code around the assumption it
wouldn't happen to do it.
Taking the zookeeper case as an example, it very much might be desirable to
have the possibility to heal the zk cluster by promoting another node
(configured as eligible for zk) to active zk duty if one of the current zk
nodes has been down long enough (say on prem hardware, motherboard pops a
capacitor, server gone for a week while new hardware is purchased, built
and configured). Especially if the down node didn't hold data or other
nodes had sufficient replicas and the cluster is still answering queries
just fine.
>
> > I know of a case that would benefit from having separate Query/Update
> nodes that handle a heavy analysis process which would be deployed to a
> number of CPU heavy boxes (which might add more in prep for bulk indexing,
> and remove them when bulk was done), data could then be hosted on cheaper
> nodes....
>
> This is the main motivation behind this work. SOLR-15715 needs this, and
> hence it would be good to get this in as soon as possible.
>
I think we can incrementally work towards configurability for all of these
roles. The current default state is that a node has all roles and the
incremental progress is to enable removing a role from a node. This I think
is why it might be good to to
A) Determine the set of roles our current solr nodes are performing (that
might be removed in some scenario) and document this via assigning these
roles as default on as this SIP goes live.
B) Figure out what the process of adding something entirely new that we
haven't yet thought of with its own role would look like.
I think it would be great if we not only satisfied the current need but
determined how we expect this to change over time.
> Regards,
> Ishan
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 6:32 PM Gus Heck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The SIP looks like a good start, and I was already thinking of something
>> very similar to this as a follow on to my attempts to split the uber filter
>> (SolrDispatchFilter) into servlets such that roles determine what servlets
>> are deployed, but I would like to recommend that the roles be all positive
>> ("Can do this") and nodes with no role at all are ineligible for all
>> activities. (just like standard role permissioning systems). This will make
>> it much more familiar and easy to think about. Therefore there would be no
>> need for a role such as !data which I presume was meant to mean "no data on
>> this node"... rather just don't give the "data" role to the node.
>>
>> Additional node roles I think should exist:
>>
>> I think that we should expand/edit your list of roles to be
>>
>> - QUERY - accepts and analyzes queries up to the point of actually
>> consulting the lucene index (useful if you have a very heavy analysis
>> phase)
>> - UPDATE - accepts update requests, and performs update functionality
>> prior to and including DistributedUpdateProcessorFactory (useful if you
>> have a very heavy analysis phase)
>> - ADMIN - accepts admin/management commands
>> - UI - hosts an admin ui
>> - ZOOKEEPER - hosts embedded zookeeper
>> - OVERSEER - performs overseer related functionality (though IIRC
>> there's a proposal to eliminate overseer that might eliminate this)
>> - DATA - nodes where there is a lucene index and matching against the
>> analyzed results of a query may be conducted to generate a response, also
>> performs update steps that come after DistributedUpdateProcesserFactory
>>
>> I also suggest that these roles each have a node in zookeeper listing the
>> current member nodes (as child nodes) so that code that wants to find a
>> node with an appropriate role does not need to scan the list of all nodes
>> parsing something to discover which nodes apply and also does not have to
>> parse json to do it. I think this will be particularly key for zookeeper
>> nodes which might be 3 out of 100 or more nodes. Similar to how we track
>> live nodes. I think we should have a nodes.json too that tracks what roles
>> a node is ALLOWED to take (as opposed to which roles it currently servicing)
>>
>> So running code consults the zookeeper role list of nodes, and any code
>> seeking to transition a node (an admin operation with much lower
>> performance requirements) consults the json data in the nodes.json node,
>> parses it, finds the node in question and checks what it's eligible for
>> (this will correspond to which servlets/apps have been loaded).
>>
>> I know of a case that would benefit from having separate Query/Update
>> nodes that handle a heavy analysis process which would be deployed to a
>> number of CPU heavy boxes (which might add more in prep for bulk indexing,
>> and remove them when bulk was done), data could then be hosted on cheaper
>> nodes....
>>
>> Also maybe think about how this relates to NRT/TLOG/PULL which are also
>> maybe role like
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> -Gus
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 3:17 AM Ishan Chattopadhyaya <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Here's an SIP for introducing the concept of node roles:
>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15694
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SOLR/SIP-15+Node+roles
>>>
>>> We also wish to add first class support for Query nodes that are used to
>>> process user queries by forwarding to data nodes, merging/aggregating them
>>> and presenting to users. This concept exists as first class citizens in
>>> most other search engines. This is a chance for Solr to catch up.
>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15715
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ishan / Noble / Hitesh
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.needhamsoftware.com (work)
>> http://www.the111shift.com (play)
>>
>
--
http://www.needhamsoftware.com (work)
http://www.the111shift.com (play)
