I added a developer-doc draft for modules and packages in 
https://github.com/apache/solr/pull/531 (HTML preview 
<https://github.com/apache/solr/blob/7eeaba318a79ed62678ab3ac5f1d403733d88e5f/dev-docs/plugins-modules-packages.adoc>).
 Let me know if it is useful.

Jan

> 14. jan. 2022 kl. 18:13 skrev David Smiley <[email protected]>:
> 
> Fair points.  I might take a stab at this on the weekend to see.
> 
> I propose no change to the SOLR_HOME detection logic, which will naturally 
> end up being SOLR_INSTALL/server/solr (where solr.xml is).  Docker stuff 
> won't need to set it / play games as it does now.
> 
> ~ David Smiley
> Apache Lucene/Solr Search Developer
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley 
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley>
> 
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 9:08 AM Jan Høydahl <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Hmm, yea it's always been a bit odd how SOLR_HOME does not point to where you 
> untared solr, i.e. /opt/solr, like for every other software out there. So I 
> support such a change.
> Will SOLR_VAR be exactly what the old SOLR_HOME was, i.e. /var/solr/data, or 
> will it point to /var/solr? It's also a bit odd how we don't (I think) have a 
> var pointing to /var/solr as laid out by the install script and in Dockerfile.
> 
> Such a change will have to happen either in 9.0 or 10.0. Sounds a tad too 
> large for 9.0, since it's not even started. But a JIRA is a good start. 
> Perhaps it is easier than we imagine, and suddenly someone have put up a PR? 
> :)
> 
> I did not quite get where you wanted the "new" SOLR_HOME to point to. I think 
> if we should change anything, it should point to the root of the Solr 
> installation?
> 
> Jan
> 
>> 14. jan. 2022 kl. 14:47 skrev David Smiley <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>:
>> 
>> I believe the root cause here is fixed by my "Immutable Infrastructure" 
>> adherence proposal relating to a new SOLR_VAR:
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/3vvld3xnndtthtl7sfgdbsgkbtpm55b0 
>> <https://lists.apache.org/thread/3vvld3xnndtthtl7sfgdbsgkbtpm55b0>
>> Thus SOLR_HOME stays with the solr installation; mutable data like the 
>> indexes go in a new SOLR_VAR -- ultimately the same path to the data that 
>> exists today.  But since SOLR_HOME stays with Solr, so does the lib and thus 
>> it's easy to mount in some other path or whatever.
>> 
>> I didn't create a JIRA issue... I've been extremely busy.  But before I do, 
>> WDYT about this?
>> 
>> ~ David Smiley
>> Apache Lucene/Solr Search Developer
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley 
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley>
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 4:20 AM Jan Høydahl <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> Yep, have also been using SOLR_HOME/lib for years. But for a recent client, 
>> they needed to package up 2-3 plugin jars into the docker image, so then we 
>> tried $SOLR_HOME/lib, but since /var/solr/data is defined as a Docker volume 
>> in our Dockerfile, it won't help copying libs in that location in custom 
>> Dockerfile, since at runtime the volume location will be used instead, where 
>> some old jars would be used instead. So we added the libs to some 
>> /opt/foo/lib folder, and made an init-script in 
>> "/docker-entrypoint-initdb.d/" that on container startup would do a "rm 
>> /var/solr/data/lib/*.jar && cp /opt/foo/lib/*.jar /var/solr/data/lib/", i.e. 
>> clean up existing jars from the docker-host's existing volume and copy in 
>> the fresh plugin jars from the newest image. Phew. And the same with 
>> solr.xml initialization...
>> 
>> Of course we could have used export SOLR_OPTS=$SOLR_OPTS 
>> -Dsolr.sharedLib=/opt/foo/lib or something, but it is still not super easy. 
>> So that's what the new standard location tries to solve - you load code from 
>> a stable path, not together with your data.
>> 
>> Jan
>> 
>>> 13. jan. 2022 kl. 19:04 skrev David Smiley <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>:
>>> 
>>> +1 to your phasing.
>>>  
>>> Another minor improvement for users is if we pre-add $SOLR_TIP/lib to the 
>>> classloader
>>> I'll create a JIRA :) 
>>> 
>>> SOLR-HOME/lib is already supported -- 
>>> https://nightlies.apache.org/solr/draft-guides/solr-reference-guide-main/libs.html
>>>  
>>> <https://nightlies.apache.org/solr/draft-guides/solr-reference-guide-main/libs.html>
>>> This is what I recommend people use in general.
>>> 
>>> ~ David Smiley
>>> Apache Lucene/Solr Search Developer
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley 
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley>
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 10:59 AM Houston Putman <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> It could very well be worth shipping two docker images in the meantime.
>>> Or maybe a zip of each module could be a separate artifact that is 
>>> published?  I'm not sure what freedoms we have to do this in the ASF.
>>> 
>>> I think for 9.0 we could realistically shoot for 2 binary releases and 2 
>>> docker images, slim (without the modules) and full-featured (with the 
>>> modules), having the full-featured be the default.
>>> 
>>> Starting in the 9.x line, we could start packaging the modules as separate 
>>> binary artifacts for the solr release. Then in 10.x we can make the slim 
>>> release be the default (still having the fat tgz available as well with as 
>>> solr-extended-10.0.0.tgz or something like that).
>>>  
>>> Phase 1. (9.0): Modularize Solr by extracting obvious low hanging fruits 
>>> plugins into contribs/modules. Make it super easy to launch solr wil any of 
>>> these on class-path (SOLR-15914 
>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15914>).
>>> Phase 2 (9.x): Evolve package manager and make it possible to optionally 
>>> install the modules as 1st party packages instead (still fat distro)
>>> Pase 3: (10.0?): Extract even more features as modules, and publish all 
>>> modules as separate delivery artifacts on DLCDN
>>> 
>>> I really like this plan. I agree for 9.x we really don't have an option, 
>>> but to keep publishing the fat tgz as the default. Even in 10.x I think we 
>>> want to offer both a full-featured download and a slim download, but with 
>>> first-part-packages we can make slim the "default".
>>> 
>>> Another minor improvement for users is if we pre-add $SOLR_TIP/lib to the 
>>> classloader
>>> I'll create a JIRA :) 
>>> 
>>> Yes please. That would be a lovely improvement! People bend-over-backward 
>>> currently to add custom libs.
>>> 
>>> - Houston
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 8:09 AM Jan Høydahl <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> Another minor improvement for users is if we pre-add $SOLR_TIP/lib to the 
>>> classloader, similar to what we have with $SOLR_HOME/lib today. The 
>>> disadvantage of $SOLR_HOME/lib is that it can be anywhere, perhaps on a 
>>> Docker volume or a different disk, so you cannot e.g make a Dockerfile like
>>> 
>>> FROM solr:9.0
>>> ADD foo.jar /var/solr/data/lib/foo.jar
>>> 
>>> ...since /var/solr/data is a volume and will resolve to the volume 
>>> partition of the user, not the content from the image. So if we instead 
>>> allow users to do
>>> 
>>> FROM solr:9.0
>>> ADD foo.jar /opt/solr/lib/
>>> 
>>> That is both logical and beautiful, and would always work.
>>> 
>>> I'll create a JIRA :) 
>>> 
>>> Jan
>>> 
>>>> 13. jan. 2022 kl. 13:57 skrev Jan Høydahl <[email protected] 
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>:
>>>> 
>>>> There is not a lack of vision for future local and remote package 
>>>> repositories, but the story is that package mgmt development has stalled, 
>>>> and is out of reach for 1st party pkgs in the 9.0.0 timeframe.
>>>> 
>>>> So we have to think progress over perfection - once again
>>>> 
>>>> Phase 1. (9.0): Modularize Solr by extracting obvious low hanging fruits 
>>>> plugins into contribs/modules. Make it super easy to launch solr wil any 
>>>> of these on class-path (SOLR-15914 
>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15914>).
>>>> Phase 2 (9.x): Evolve package manager and make it possible to optionally 
>>>> install the modules as 1st party packages instead (still fat distro)
>>>> Pase 3: (10.0?): Extract even more features as modules, and publish all 
>>>> modules as separate delivery artifacts on DLCDN
>>>> 
>>>> Regarding phase 2 in 9.x. We cannot really extract a feature into a module 
>>>> in e.g. 9.1 so users upgrading from 9.0 will get NoClassFoundException. 
>>>> That breaks back-compat. But perhaps we could continue modularization 
>>>> efforts in 9.x if we make sure that all new modules extracted in a minor 
>>>> release are automatically added to the classloader? Then the classes will 
>>>> disappear from solr-core.jar so would possibly break someone's custom 
>>>> embedded usecase, but 99% of users would be unaffected. Wdyt?
>>>> 
>>>> In any case, I think for 9.x the realistic route is to keep our fat tgz, 
>>>> but make it slimmer by removing redundancy and prune down on the number of 
>>>> overlapping dependencies. That can get us a long way.
>>>> 
>>>> Jan
>>>> 
>>>>> 13. jan. 2022 kl. 03:15 skrev David Smiley <[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Shawn:
>>>>> * RE redundancies of stuff in /dist/, see 
>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15916 
>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15916>
>>>>> * RE "contrib" vs "module" vs "package", see: 
>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15917 
>>>>> <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-15917>
>>>>> * RE not shipping these extras with the Solr distribution, see: "slim 
>>>>> distro" mention in the document "Solr first party packages" 
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7gB2JAdZhlJKFrCd4Txcw4HDkdk7hlULyAZBS-wXrE/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>  
>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n7gB2JAdZhlJKFrCd4Txcw4HDkdk7hlULyAZBS-wXrE/edit?usp=sharing>
>>>>> 
>>>>> It could very well be worth shipping two docker images in the meantime.
>>>>> Or maybe a zip of each module could be a separate artifact that is 
>>>>> published?  I'm not sure what freedoms we have to do this in the ASF.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ~ David Smiley
>>>>> Apache Lucene/Solr Search Developer
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley 
>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley>
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 8:21 PM Shawn Heisey <[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>> On 1/12/2022 8:31 AM, Jan Høydahl wrote:
>>>>> > I think there are lots of pieces of code in solr-core that can easily 
>>>>> > be extracted the same way.
>>>>> > Some perhaps even for 9.0.0, as it slims down the core and reduces 
>>>>> > attack surface for most users as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think it would be really awesome if we had a core download that only 
>>>>> included basic functionality, and all the other fancy things that Solr 
>>>>> does now out of the box (as well as those that are contrib) could be 
>>>>> added after download via package scripting or just additional downloads.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The size of solr-8.11.1.tgz is 207MiB, or 218076598 bytes.  The .zip 
>>>>> version is slightly larger.  8.0.0 was 163MiB, 7.0.0 was 142MiBm, 6.0.0 
>>>>> was 131MiB, and 1.4.1 was 53.7MiB.  I think it's insane that the 
>>>>> download is so big ... and a lot of what makes it big are things that 
>>>>> the vast majority of our users will never use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Large reductions in the overall size of the main download would be 
>>>>> possible by putting hadoop, calcite, some of the really large lucene 
>>>>> analysis components, and the contrib stuff into packages.  The 
>>>>> extraction contrib alone is 43.5MiB compressed in zip format.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would suggest moving zookeeper and its dependencies as well, but I 
>>>>> think we probably want SolrCloud to be part of base functionality.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Some of the large jars are included for what are probably insignificant 
>>>>> usages, and I wonder if that functionality could be replaced by newer 
>>>>> native functions available in Java 8 and later.  I am eyeballing things 
>>>>> like guava and the commons-* jars here, but I am sure there are other 
>>>>> things in this category.  I'd like to eliminate as many dependencies as 
>>>>> we can.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Extracting some things from the solr-core jar into other jars sounds 
>>>>> like a really awesome idea.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't think the solr-core jar should be in the dist directory.  It's 
>>>>> useless by itself, because it will still have a LOT of dependencies even 
>>>>> if we shrink it.  And there are likely other things in the dist 
>>>>> directory that fall into that category.  The test framework and its 
>>>>> dependencies are a good candidate for removal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> By removing some of the low-hanging fruit that I am SURE isn't needed 
>>>>> for base binary functionality on the 8.11.1 download, I was able to end 
>>>>> up with a .zip file sized in at 60.4MiB, and I am sure at least a little 
>>>>> bit of further reduction is possible if we can fully map out 
>>>>> dependencies.  I think we can leverage gradle to provide some dependency 
>>>>> info.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Exactly how to organize the code repo to create divided artifacts is 
>>>>> something that we would need to think about.  My initial idea is 
>>>>> changing "contrib" to "package" and then making some new directories 
>>>>> under package.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Shawn
>>>>> 
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 

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