Hi Noah, Thanks for the clarification - I understand and appreciate the concern you're raising.
I know this is not a reason to stop being concerned, but I can assure you that WSO2 has no intention of stopping or slowing down our efforts on this project in the foreseeable future. I can't project beyond that! In any case, I apologize for appearing defensive .. that was not my intent at all. I have no objection to having the clarified wording you wanted to report to the board (for future reports at this point I guess). We (WSO2) plan to very actively recruit others to join this project - even more after graduation as people are a bit reluctant to commit to this stuff otherwise. If you have suggestions on what to do I'm, and we're, all ears. When you have a chance please do listen to Samisa's ApacheCon keynote talk - that'll show you what we plan to do as a company for this stuff. Cheers, Sanjiva. On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Noah Slater <[email protected]> wrote: > People are allowed to do whatever they please. And it's certainly not > wrong for WSO2 to hire people from the community. I don't disagree > with that at all. I'm making an altogether different point (which I > will clarify below). > > I must also make it very clear that I do not believe Stratos is having > issues operating in the open, nor have I ever implied that I think > this. > > My concern is that that Stratos PMC is still heavily skewed with WSO2 > employees. This is a problem because what if WSO2 suddenly loses > interest in the project? Will all of those PMC members continue to > contribute the same amount? > > I'm not imputing anything about WSO2 here either. This is a *general > problem*, and one which the foundation hopes to address with *every* > podling and every TLP. > > We want to attract a broad base of diverse contributors so that we > insulate ourselves and our projects from the whims, caprice, and > changing life circumstances of our contributors, and the organisations > that pay them to work on our projects. > > Another project I am involved with at Apache lost its progenitor, and > one of the dominant companies employing people in the PMC "went > rogue". We survived, thankfully. But it was a close call. And it > probably wouldn't've happened unless the project had been as diverse > as it was. > > So again: yes, I find it concerning that the makeup of the PMC isn't > more diverse. I hope that this will be a priority for us until we're > satisfied that we've diversified enough. Because again: doing so > ensures the health of the project! > > I'll be honest: I feel a little perturbed by the reaction I've got in > the last few weeks bringing this up. My attempts at productive > conversation about this appear to have been met with defensiveness, > which is not what I expect. > > The question I've brought up have been ignored or side-stepped, and my > position has been mischaracterised several times. So I don't know if > I'm doing a poor job of communicating or what here. > > And while I'm happy to go along with the other mentors, this makes me > feel like the graduation is being rushed. > > > > On 10 April 2014 06:55, Sanjiva Weerawarana <[email protected]> wrote: > > Noah totally +1 for diversity. > > > > However, are people allowed to switch employment? Is it wrong for WSO2 > (for > > example) to hire someone else? > > > > *That's* the point of Roy's mail. > > > > Clearly your views are a bit different .. to me the MOST important thing > is > > that we make decisions and execute in a purely open, Apache Way way. So > far > > its very clear this poddling has done that and I believe all mentors but > you > > believe that. I don't think you disagree but I didn't want to attempt to > > state your position. > > > > So, this group has done what it needs to do. The job NEVER finishes of > > course - every email, every discussion, every event will either further > or > > damage the environment. That's what we need to be constantly vigilant > about > > and get right. Some of your suggestions ref board reports are awesome. > Thank > > you. > > > > Sanjiva. > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Noah Slater <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> I am happy with the edit and have signed off. Thanks. > >> > >> Ant, saw that last month, yeah. From my perspective (and for the > >> others on this list) diversity is one of the ways the foundation > >> hedges its bets. It insulates us from people, and indeed > >> organisations, losing interest in a project, or doing something weird. > >> > >> I wouldn't argue that diversity ought to be a requirement for > >> graduation. But if a podling is having a hard time diversifying the > >> PMC, that's a potential red flag. Why is it having such a hard time? > >> Are people working on it? > >> > >> In the case of Stratos, the answers to that last question is yes. :) > >> > >> On 8 April 2014 14:50, ant elder <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > One of the reasons diversity may not be seen as the most important > issue > >> > now > >> > could be from the discussion around the email from Roy saying that > there > >> > is > >> > no diversity requirement, eg - > >> > > >> > > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-stratos-dev/201403.mbox/%3CCADENRmrH76dT%2BM02d3HKeuBiMeD%2BOsQvsHBSBhX%3DDZe8E2V%2BCg%40mail.gmail.com%3E > >> > > >> > ...ant > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Noah Slater <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I would mention that the diversity question has come up. It was > >> >> flagged in November, and it was flagged last month. > >> >> > >> >> It was mentioned as the top most important issue to address in > >> >> January. This month it is not even listed. (In fact, number 2 is > >> >> completely empty. Error?) > >> >> > >> >> "Community diversity was a concern during the last report, and it has > >> >> been addressed by bringing in a number of non-WSO2 committers & PPMC > >> >> members." > >> >> > >> >> This is misleading IMO. It is *being* addressed, but it hasn't been > >> >> addressed. > >> >> > >> >> There was a lengthy discussion about it, and my take-away was that > >> >> other mentors think the project is on track to solve these issues. > >> >> > >> >> But I feel like the discussion, and indeed status of this as a WIP, > >> >> should be reflected in the report. > >> >> > >> >> On 8 April 2014 14:08, Afkham Azeez <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Noah Slater <[email protected]> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Can we expand the section on diversity? I would say something > like: > >> >> >> the project recognises that diversity is area of concern and is > >> >> >> actively working to attract new and diverse contributors. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > I would word it as "The project is actively working towards further > >> >> > diversification by attracting more non-WSO2 contributors" > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On 8 April 2014 12:19, Noah Slater <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> > Devs, > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I recently asked about the board report, and was told it was > being > >> >> >> > prepared. I didn't hear anything else back about that, nor did I > >> >> >> > see > >> >> >> > anything on the list. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > I just checked the wiki: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2014 > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > We have a board report filled in there. But I can't find any > >> >> >> > mention > >> >> >> > of it on the lists. Was this circulated? How was this done? > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > In future, reports should be drafted with help from the > community, > >> >> >> > so > >> >> >> > that people have a chance to chip in. Also, this helps to alert > >> >> >> > your > >> >> >> > mentors that there is something to review. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Apologies if a note was sent out. I searched my email for it and > >> >> >> > cannot find anything. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Thanks, > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -- > >> >> >> > Noah Slater > >> >> >> > https://twitter.com/nslater > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> Noah Slater > >> >> >> https://twitter.com/nslater > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Afkham Azeez > >> >> > Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com, > >> >> > Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ > >> >> > > >> >> > email: [email protected] cell: +94 77 3320919 > >> >> > blog: http://blog.afkham.org > >> >> > twitter: http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez > >> >> > linked-in: http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez > >> >> > > >> >> > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Noah Slater > >> >> https://twitter.com/nslater > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Noah Slater > >> https://twitter.com/nslater > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. > > Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com/ > > email: [email protected]; office: (+1 650 745 4499 | +94 11 214 5345) > x5700; > > cell: +94 77 787 6880 | +1 408 466 5099; voip: +1 650 265 8311 > > blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/; twitter: @sanjiva > > > > Lean . Enterprise . Middleware > > > > -- > Noah Slater > https://twitter.com/nslater > -- Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. Founder, Chairman & CEO; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com/ email: [email protected]; office: (+1 650 745 4499 | +94 11 214 5345) x5700; cell: +94 77 787 6880 | +1 408 466 5099; voip: +1 650 265 8311 blog: http://sanjiva.weerawarana.org/; twitter: @sanjiva Lean . Enterprise . Middleware
